About a Pastor who was twice a 5 point Calvinist.

[Salty]

six hour warining
This thread will be closed no sooner than 352 pm edt / 1252 pm edt

 

[Silverhair]

Why not include the issue of, "sin",
as these passages do in their preceding verses?

Does, "sin", exist in your plan of Salvation?

Rom 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
is True enough, however, this fact doesn't Save.

Does, "CONVICTION", exist in your plan of Salvation?

Not only mental persuasion but SPIRITUAL,
HEART-FELT CONVICTION is an absolute necessity
if the soul is to be CONVERTED to CHRIST.

An individual sinner must be CONVICTED of SIN
and their heart must be Smitten with Godly Sorrow over their SIN.

Does, "REPENTANCE", exist in your plan of Salvation?

REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD of their SIN must be Wrought in them,
before they will, in fact, Come to CHRIST.

Luke 13:5; "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent,
ye shall all likewise perish."

The Law was Given that SIN might appear SINFUL
and individual sinners might (in their hearts) realize their GUILT.

Prior to Romans 3:21;

Romans 3:19-20;
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith,
it saith to them who are under the law:
that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law
there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

CONSENT to "trust", "believe", "have faith",
without CONVICTION and REPENTANCE
LEAVES LOST SOULS, LOST.

CONSENT of SIN without CONVICTION and REPENTANCE
LEAVES LOST SOULS, LOST.

Does, "REGENERATION", exist in your plan of Salvation?

I SEE NO REGENERATION in your 'plan of salvation.

THERE MUST BE SPIRITUAL CONVICTION of SIN,
TO BE FORGIVEN.

Prior to Ephesians 1:13;

Ephesians 1:3; "Blessed be the God
and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings
in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame
before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children
by Jesus Christ to himself,
according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace,
wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood,
the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will,
according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times
he might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of him
who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory,
who first trusted in Christ."

Prior to Romans 10:9-10;

"Brethren, my heart's desire
and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God,
but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness,
and going about to establish their own righteousness,
have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness
to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law,
That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith
speaketh on this wise,
Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven?
(that is, to bring Christ down from above

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep?
(that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee,
even in thy mouth, and in thy heart:
that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"

They Preached Repentance and Faith.

Allan as I have said before "there is no conversion without conviction" but calvinism dos not allow for or require conviction. How many times have calvinists said we were chosen before the foundation of the world. So if God chose you you were never in fear of condemnation and if you were not chosen than you were never able to be saved. So all those calls to repent, to trust in God were just window dressing. In fact Christ did not even have to die did He. Such is the false teaching of calvinism.

The bible is true and a non-calvinist can actually believe what it says but for the calvinist what does it mean. It really just becomes so many words on paper as none of it has any real impact on their future does it. But that's only if calvinism were true.

 

[Silverhair]

Adam had Free Will and sinned against God.

All of Adams Posterity have Free Will
and can ONLY SIN AGAINST GOD, with their "will".

Then by your logic man has no free will so if man has no free will then God determines all that happens thus you have just made God the author of all the sin and evil in the world.

 

[Silverhair]

God is Sovereign
God doesn't want to do anything or whatever is possible to do. For example, God doesn't want to bow down to Satan therefore he doesn't do whatever is possible. Therefore you do not understand what Sovereignty entails.
When a Sovereign ruler makes a Covenant, he cannot break the Covenant he made without penalty to himself. He has put constraints upon himself while still remaining sovereign.

You are attempting to force God to do things he has never said He will do and then tell me I don't believe God is Sovereign. You have purposely distorted God into your image and thus you show us your humanism.


Which I just showed you are not true since you are forcing the statement.


Here you jump from a false statement to a false conclusion.

God left Adam to choose for himself. Adam chose rebellion against the Covenant God, the Supreme Sovereign over all Creation, had made with Adam. Therefore every offspring of Adam consequently chooses rebellion against God. The Bible tells us we are therefore slaves to sin.

Sliverhair, are all humans born in slavery to sin? Is God speaking truth or lying?

*Romans 6:20-23*
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Here you keep begging the original assertion that was demonstrably false at the start. Therefore your entire proposal is in err.

Austin you have made your own special meaning for sovereign. You rebel at the idea that God could and would actually grant man the ability to make real choices and then judge them on those choices. But that sure looks like what the bible says God doesn't it. You hold onto your distorted view of sovereignty and I will just go with what the bible shows Gods' sovereignty to actually be like.

 

[AustinC]

Austin you have made your own special meaning for sovereign.

Nope

You rebel at the idea that God could and would actually grant man the ability to make real choices and then judge them on those choices.

Nope

You hold onto your distorted view of sovereignty and I will just go with what the bible shows Gods' sovereignty to actually be like.

Sliverhair, indeed your humanism will never allow you to admit to being subservient under the determining will of God. This is to you error of which only God himself can correct.

 

[Silverhair]

Nope


Nope


Sliverhair, indeed your humanism will never allow you to admit to being subservient under the determining will of God. This is to you error of which only God himself can correct.

Austin how do you get that dumb idea from what I have said? God is sovereign and He in His sovereignty allows for man to have a free will. You require God to determine all things then balk when it is pointed out that view would make God the author of sin. Note I said your errant view does that not the bible which it seems you only use to support you view by cherry picking verses.

If you need God to pull your strings like a puppet so you dance to the tune He has determined for you then so be it but that is not the God of the bible. But your deterministic God will not let you see your error lest your eyes be opened to the truth and you actually turn to the biblical God.

We have been down this road a number of times and you a still determined to ignore the truth of scripture, so be it. I will just pray that God will open your eyes to the truth before it is to late.

 

[Alan Gross]

Then by your logic man has no free will so if man has no free will then God determines all that happens thus you have just made God the author of all the sin and evil in the world.

Then by your logic man has no free will

Man is Free to Will what he has the Capacity to Will,
which does not include having any Ability to Will
to Come to God on his own.

"Not of him that willeth".

"You will not come to Me"

if man has no free will then God determines all that happens thus you have just made God the author of all the sin and evil in the world.

Sin and evil in the world are the results of man's sin.

God Created man and the circumstances within which man sinned,
for God's Glory.

 

[AustinC]

Austin how do you get that dumb idea from what I have said? God is sovereign

Indeed, God is Sovereign.

and He in His sovereignty allows for man to have a free will.

This is your opinion from humanist reasoning, but not from what God tells us in the Bible regarding our own salvation and redemption.

You require God to determine all things then balk when it is pointed out that view would make God the author of sin.

Here you conclude that God authors sin by ordaining Adams capacity to rebel. Show us then that God authored rebellion.
I will point you to the creation and show you that God authored humankind and by sovereign decreed gave man the capacity to break covenant yet not the capacity to restore covenant.

Note I said your errant view does that not the bible which it seems you only use to support you view by cherry picking verses.

Please show me how I cherry pick verses since I quote passages in context. Here, you simply speak falsely.

If you need God to pull your strings like a puppet so you dance to the tune He has determined for you then so be it but that is not the God of the bible.

Your view of a Sovereign God is so noted. Yet it is the God of the Bible who holds all His Creation in His Hands.
*Colossians 1:15-23*
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

But your deterministic God will not let you see your error lest your eyes be opened to the truth and you actually turn to the biblical God.

Interesting that you acknowledge your god is not found in the Bible. If your god were found in the Bible you could show us how he places man upon a pedestal and bows to man's will, as you so arrogantly express.

We have been down this road a number of times and you a still determined to ignore the truth of scripture, so be it.

Not once have I ignored the truth of God and His word. I ignore your humanist philosophy and false religion that you spread on the BB like a cancer.

I will just pray that God will open your eyes to the truth before it is to late.

He already has since I once lived in the darkness of your philosophy and have been graciously shown the splendor of God's Sovereign determination in redeeming the children whom he designated to inherit eternal life.

Sliverhair, have you any knowledge of Grima Wormtongue? If you do, you would know how I view your words and your counsel.

 

[Alan Gross]

You 'system' of Salvation does not include:

Predestined/ Elected

The Effectual Call

A Spiritually dead sinner

Conviction of sin through the instrumentality of the word

Repentance

Spiritually wrought Faith and Belief

Regeneration

The Sealing of The Holy Spirit

Justification

Glorification


It does include:

Consent to not want to go to Hell

in the form of:

Mental "Belief"

Mental "Faith"

Mental "Choosing"

Mental "Desition"

"Making Jesus your Lord"

"Meeting Jesus Half-Way"

"True Trust"

"Signing a Commitment Card"

"Praying a sinners prayer",

and that kind of fleshly activity.

...

How far off am I?

 

[Alan Gross]

The New Hampshire Confession of Faith 1833

III. Of the Fall of Man

We believe that man was created in holiness,
under the law of his Maker, but by
voluntary transgression fell from that holy and happy state;
in consequence of which all mankind are now sinners,
not by constraint but choice;

being by nature utterly void of that holiness
required by the law of God, positively inclined to evil;

and therefore under just condemnation to eternal ruin,
without defense or excuse.

Gen.1:27; Gen.1:31; Ecc.7:29; Acts 17:26-29;
Gen.2:16-17; Gen.3:6-24; Rom. 5:12;
Rom.5:15-19; Ps.51:5; Rom.8:7; Isa.53:6;
Gen.6:12; Rom.3:9-18; Eph.2:1-3;
Rom.1:18,32; Rom.2:1-16; Gal.3:10; Matt. 20:15;
Ezek. 18:19-20; Rom.1:20; Rom.3:19; Gal. 3:22.

IV. Of the Way of Salvation

We believe that the salvation of sinners is wholly of grace;
through the Mediatorial offices of the Son of God;

who by the appointment of the Father
freely took upon him our nature, yet without sin;

honored the divine law by his personal obedience,
and by his death made a full atonement for our sins;

having risen from the dead, he is now enthroned in heaven,
and uniting in his wonderful person the tenderest sympathies
with divine perfections, he is in every way qualified to be a suitable,
a compassionate, and all-sufficient Saviour.

V. Of Justification

We believe that the great gospel blessing which Christ
secures to such as believe in him is justification;

that justification includes the pardon of sin,
and the promise of eternal life on principles of righteousness;

that it is bestowed
not in consideration of any works of righteousness
which we have done,
but solely through faith in the Redeemer's blood;

by virtue of which faith his perfect righteousness
is freely imputed to us of God;

that it brings us into a state of most blessed peace
and favor with God,
and secures every other blessing needful for time and eternity.

John 1:16, Eph.3:8, Acts 13:39, Isa. 53:11-12,
Rom5:1-2, Rom. 5:9, Zech. 13;1, Matt. 9:6, Acts 10:43,
Rom. 5:17, Titus 3:5-7, I Peter 3:7, I John 2:25,
Rom. 5:21, Rom. 4:4-5, Rom. 6:23, Phil. 3:7-9,
Rom. 5:19, Rom. 3:24-26, Rom.4:23-25, I John 2:12,
Rom. 5:3, Rom. 5:11, I Cor. 1:30-31, Matt. 6:33, I Tim. 4:8

VI. Of the Freeness of Salvation

We believe that the blessings of salvation
are made free to all by the gospel;

that it is the immediate duty of all to accept them
by a cordial penitent, and obedient faith;

and that nothing prevents the salvation
of the greatest sinner on earth,
but his own inherent depravity
and voluntary rejection of the gospel;

which rejection involves him in an aggravated condemnation

Isa. 55:1, Rev. 22:17, Rom. 16:25-26, Mark 1:15,
Rom. 1:15-17, John 5:40, Matt.23:37, Rom.9:32,
Pro. 1:24, Acts 13:46, John 3:19, Matt. 11:20, Luke 10:27, II Thess. 1:8

VII. Of Grace in Regeneration

We believe that in order to be saved,
sinners must be regenerated,
or born again;

that regeneration consists
in giving a holy disposition to the mind;

that it is effected in a manner
above our comprehension
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
in connection with divine truth,

so as to secure our
voluntary obedience to the gospel;

and that its proper evidence appears
in the holy fruits of repentance and faith
and newness of life

John 3:3, John 3:6-7, I Cor.3:14, Rev.14:3, Rev. 21:27,
II Cor. 5;17, Ezek. 36:26, Deu. 30-6, Rom. 2:28-29,
Rom.5:5, I John 4:7, John 3:8, John 1:13, James 1:16-18,
I Cor. 1:30, Phil. 2:13, I Peter 1:22-25, I John 5:1,
Eph. 4:20-24, Col. 3:9-11, Eph. 5:9, Rom. 8:90, Gal. 5:16-23,
Eph. 3:14-21, Matt. 3:8-10, Matt.7:20, I John 5:4, 18

VIII. Of Repentance and Faith

We believe that repentance and faith are sacred duties
and also inseparable graces,
wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God;

whereby being deeply convinced of our guilt,
danger and helplessness, and of the way of salvation by Christ,

we turn to God with unfeigned contrition,
confession and supplication for mercy; at the same time

...
The 1677/89 London Baptist Confession of Faith

3. Man by his fall into a state of sin
hath wholly lost (d) all ability of Will,
to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;

so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, (e)
and dead in Sin, is not able, by his own strength,
to (f) convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto.

d Rom. 5.6. ch. 8.7.

• 
  
  e Eph. 2.1.5.
  
  f Tit. 3 3,4,5. Joh. 6.44.
  

 

[37818]

.

The New Hampshire Confession of Faith 1833

III. Of the Fall of Man

We believe that man was created in holiness,
under the law of his Maker, but by
voluntary transgression fell from that holy and happy state;
in consequence of which all mankind are now sinners,
not by constraint but choice;

being by nature utterly void of that holiness
required by the law of God, positively inclined to evil;

and therefore under just condemnation to eternal ruin,
without defense or excuse.

Gen.1:27; Gen.1:31; Ecc.7:29; Acts 17:26-29;
Gen.2:16-17; Gen.3:6-24; Rom. 5:12;
Rom.5:15-19; Ps.51:5; Rom.8:7; Isa.53:6;
Gen.6:12; Rom.3:9-18; Eph.2:1-3;
Rom.1:18,32; Rom.2:1-16; Gal.3:10; Matt. 20:15;
Ezek. 18:19-20; Rom.1:20; Rom.3:19; Gal. 3:22.

IV. Of the Way of Salvation

We believe that the salvation of sinners is wholly of grace;
through the Mediatorial offices of the Son of God;

who by the appointment of the Father
freely took upon him our nature, yet without sin;

honored the divine law by his personal obedience,
and by his death made a full atonement for our sins;

having risen from the dead, he is now enthroned in heaven,
and uniting in his wonderful person the tenderest sympathies
with divine perfections, he is in every way qualified to be a suitable,
a compassionate, and all-sufficient Saviour.

V. Of Justification

We believe that the great gospel blessing which Christ
secures to such as believe in him is justification;

that justification includes the pardon of sin,
and the promise of eternal life on principles of righteousness;

that it is bestowed
not in consideration of any works of righteousness
which we have done,
but solely through faith in the Redeemer's blood;

by virtue of which faith his perfect righteousness
is freely imputed to us of God;

that it brings us into a state of most blessed peace
and favor with God,
and secures every other blessing needful for time and eternity.

John 1:16, Eph.3:8, Acts 13:39, Isa. 53:11-12,
Rom5:1-2, Rom. 5:9, Zech. 13;1, Matt. 9:6, Acts 10:43,
Rom. 5:17, Titus 3:5-7, I Peter 3:7, I John 2:25,
Rom. 5:21, Rom. 4:4-5, Rom. 6:23, Phil. 3:7-9,
Rom. 5:19, Rom. 3:24-26, Rom.4:23-25, I John 2:12,
Rom. 5:3, Rom. 5:11, I Cor. 1:30-31, Matt. 6:33, I Tim. 4:8

VI. Of the Freeness of Salvation

We believe that the blessings of salvation
are made free to all by the gospel;

that it is the immediate duty of all to accept them
by a cordial penitent, and obedient faith;

and that nothing prevents the salvation
of the greatest sinner on earth,
but his own inherent depravity
and voluntary rejection of the gospel;

which rejection involves him in an aggravated condemnation

Isa. 55:1, Rev. 22:17, Rom. 16:25-26, Mark 1:15,
Rom. 1:15-17, John 5:40, Matt.23:37, Rom.9:32,
Pro. 1:24, Acts 13:46, John 3:19, Matt. 11:20, Luke 10:27, II Thess. 1:8

VII. Of Grace in Regeneration

We believe that in order to be saved,
sinners must be regenerated,
or born again;

that regeneration consists
in giving a holy disposition to the mind;

that it is effected in a manner
above our comprehension
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
in connection with divine truth,

so as to secure our
voluntary obedience to the gospel;

and that its proper evidence appears
in the holy fruits of repentance and faith
and newness of life

John 3:3, John 3:6-7, I Cor.3:14, Rev.14:3, Rev. 21:27,
II Cor. 5;17, Ezek. 36:26, Deu. 30-6, Rom. 2:28-29,
Rom.5:5, I John 4:7, John 3:8, John 1:13, James 1:16-18,
I Cor. 1:30, Phil. 2:13, I Peter 1:22-25, I John 5:1,
Eph. 4:20-24, Col. 3:9-11, Eph. 5:9, Rom. 8:90, Gal. 5:16-23,
Eph. 3:14-21, Matt. 3:8-10, Matt.7:20, I John 5:4, 18

VIII. Of Repentance and Faith

We believe that repentance and faith are sacred duties
and also inseparable graces,
wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God;

whereby being deeply convinced of our guilt,
danger and helplessness, and of the way of salvation by Christ,

we turn to God with unfeigned contrition,
confession and supplication for mercy; at the same time

...
The 1677/89 London Baptist Confession of Faith

3. Man by his fall into a state of sin
hath wholly lost (d) all ability of Will,
to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;

so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, (e)
and dead in Sin, is not able, by his own strength,
to (f) convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto.

d Rom. 5.6. ch. 8.7.

• 
  
  e Eph. 2.1.5.
  
  f Tit. 3 3,4,5. Joh. 6.44.

Did I miss it? Or is Genesis 3:22 reference actually missing?

 

[Silverhair]

Man is Free to Will what he has the Capacity to Will,
which does not include having any Ability to Will
to Come to God on his own.

"Not of him that willeth".

"You will not come to Me"



Sin and evil in the world are the results of man's sin.

God Created man and the circumstances within which man sinned,
for God's Glory.

"
Man is Free to Will what he has the Capacity to Will,
which does not include having any Ability to Will
to Come to God on his own."

Then man does not have free will. It is only your calvinisnt idea of what free will is.

 

[Silverhair]

Indeed, God is Sovereign.

This is your opinion from humanist reasoning, but not from what God tells us in the Bible regarding our own salvation and redemption.


Here you conclude that God authors sin by ordaining Adams capacity to rebel. Show us then that God authored rebellion.
I will point you to the creation and show you that God authored humankind and by sovereign decreed gave man the capacity to break covenant yet not the capacity to restore covenant.


Please show me how I cherry pick verses since I quote passages in context. Here, you simply speak falsely.


Your view of a Sovereign God is so noted. Yet it is the God of the Bible who holds all His Creation in His Hands.
*Colossians 1:15-23*
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.



Interesting that you acknowledge your god is not found in the Bible. If your god were found in the Bible you could show us how he places man upon a pedestal and bows to man's will, as you so arrogantly express.


Not once have I ignored the truth of God and His word. I ignore your humanist philosophy and false religion that you spread on the BB like a cancer.


He already has since I once lived in the darkness of your philosophy and have been graciously shown the splendor of God's Sovereign determination in redeeming the children whom he designated to inherit eternal life.

Sliverhair, have you any knowledge of Grima Wormtongue? If you do, you would know how I view your words and your counsel.

Austin you say God is sovereign then say God is not sovereign. It really is time that you make up your mind on this. It can only be one or the other.

 

[Salty]

This thread is closed