about the Catholic Church

No they do not. If they did then they would not be propagating the devilish lie that justification through faith alone if false, and we must add our works to it.

Its absolulty amazing. You make that statement in reference to a passage of scripture that you must not have even read. If you had read it, you would have seen what God actually said, and why that passage of scripture destroys the Catholics false justification theology.

Read it again...

"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, then grace would no longer be grace." - Romans 11:6

According to God, the 2 are contradictory. Its grace...or its works.

But it CAN....NOT...BE...BOTH.

The catholic church is talking out of both sides of their mouth, (or "speaking with forked tongue") when they say they believe that our justification is by grace, but that we must add our works to it to be saved.

That is complete nonsense.

God bless,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Bro,

I'm not debating that the Catholic Church has the right interpretation of Scripture. I am pointing out what the Catholic Church teaches.

It seems that others on this thread keep posting Scripture to my posts about what the Catholic Chruch teaches, and they're missing the point that I am not arguing that the Catholic Church is right in regards to Scripture. What I am posting is their interpretation of it and what they really teach.


I am correct on Catholic teaching, as pieces from the Catechism and link to it that I posted attest to.

And as for your interpretation of 1 Tim 3:15, it does not make sense in a Catholic's eyes in the light of other scriptures.... John 14, Matt 18:17, Matt 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 2 Tim 3:14-16, 2 Thess 2:15, 2 Tim 2:2, Eph 3:5, Eph 2:20, 1 Corin 11:2

Catholics believe in special regard to John 14 and Luke 10:16... Truth cannot contradict Truth, Jesus is not wrong and does not lie... Therefore if the bible was all we needed to know Christ, then we all would have the same interpretation and would not disagree with each other.

That is why it's important to read what the first Christians wrote about the Scriptures. We know that the Church that Christ built will never be overcome, any Church that cannot trace itself back to 33 AD - in Faith and lineage, cannot be the Church Christ built. Anyone can buy the writings at www.Logos.com titled "Early Church Fathers"... here is the link:
http://www.logos.com/products/details/518

Something I find VERY interesting is that they have two versions. Here is what they say about them:

You can also read the exact same writings for free at: http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/


One might ask you "How can I trust your interpretation of Scripture or history when you claim you know what the Catholic Church teaches and you are proven wrong by the Catechism of the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church teaches?"


Again I stress that I am not saying that the Catholic Church is correct, I am simply stating what they teach and why. There are many millions of Catholics who have a profound love of our Lord Jesus Christ... Therefore I love them for that. I love anyone who loves our Lord.

1 Corin. 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


Please note: "it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth."

Here is a quote that I find interesting...
"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."
~ Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John

Even if we disagree with our Catholic brethren in Christ, out of the Love for Christ and neighbor, we must get what they really teach correct.


The Catholics DO believe that we are saved by the Grace of our Lord. As every Catholic website that I've ever been to attests to.

Everyone can look it up in the Catechism for thereselves, and I ask that they do, if I'm wrong, please show me with a link to it. If Mike is wrong, please show him with a link to it.

For when we are wrong and get corrected we win by learning the truth, and that person who corrects us wins by being able to help a brother or sister out in learning the truth.

God Bless,
Sirach
(name of thread changed to conform with rules. No personal names are permitted in the title of the thread)

[ March 13, 2005, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Yes, but they add in the economy of salvation.

It is not so much that the RCC teaches Salvation by works in the sense that if you do good deeds you go to heaven but that their whole definition of justification is different, and more importantly it's synergestic; man and God working together, which is why I am willing to call it a works based salvation.

John Calvin's "Antidoteto the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent on the Doctrine of Justification" which can be found online is helpful when looking at why Protestants should really disagree with Rome over justification.

Bryan
SDG </font>[/QUOTE]Bryan,

I'm not arguing that the Catholic Church is right or wrong, what I am stating is simply what they teach. There are some people that believe that the Catholics do not use the bible, when in fact they read the Bible at every Mass, 364 days a year.


Looking at the Catholic Churches point of view, it's not adding to salvation at all, what they believe they are doing is what Christ commanded.

Ref: John 6, 1 Corin. 11:23-29, Acts 2:38, Matt. 28:19-20, John 20:21-23, Matt. 18:18, 2 Cor. 2:10, 2 Cor. 5:18, James 5:15-16

The Catholic Church calls anything where God is involved "Sacraments". The Catholic Church basically teaches that things Jesus said we need to do are things we need to do. They believe that the Eucharist is the body of Christ as said in John 6, and they point out John 6:66 for people who disagree with them. If God wants to make a little piece of bread His Body by pouring His Spirit into it, then He can do that. He is God.

Here is what the Catechism says about Sacraments:

1116
Sacraments are "powers that comes forth" from the Body of Christ,33 which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant.
...

1131
The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.


... the above and more can be found at:
Paschal Mystery in the Church's Sacraments


Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach

 

Bro James,

It you think about it, the "legalistic mumbo jumbo", helps train Catholics to resist greater temptations. It is discipline. Also, the Catholics believe that because of Christ giving the Apostles the power to bind and loose, that through Apostolic Succession, that power is carried on with the new disciples that take the "office" of the Apostles when they died, and so on.

What the Catholic Church teaches is that Catholics should give something up for Christ on every Friday, because that is the day that Christ gave up His life for us. During the 8 weeks of Lent, meat is given up. Catholics should be giving something up for Christ every Friday of the year, unless it's a feast day. By feast, they don't mean gordging yourself, they mean as in a celebration. The Catholic Church celebrates people that lead good examples of Christian lives, and they believe without doubt that they are in Heaven with Our Lord - they call them Saints. Please remember, I'm not arguing if they are correct, I'm just trying to clarify what they teach.

I can totally understand why it's so confusing for people who are not Catholic, and even those who are. I was confused about it at one time and started studying what the Catholic Church teaches and why about 4 1/2 years ago. I've been reading up quite a bit on Catholicism from Catholic sources and it took some time to understand everything.

Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach

 

Why are you totally confused that many people here were Catholic, and act as if you don't believe it.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]It's not that I don't believe it, it's that many Catholics are wrong about what their Church teaches. They go to Mass on Sundays and they stopped their Catechesis in 8th grade, instead of continuing the study of their faith. Many do not pick up a bible during the week, and their minds wonder about things not related to the readings of Scripture in the Mass, they ignore the homilies.

They can't know their faith unless they study it. Everyone has a responsibility to know their faith and be able to give reason for our hope. If Catholics are to leave their Church, then they should at least leave for the right reasons and they can't do that if they leave because of misinformation and false witness to what the Catholic Church teaches.

Many Catholics who think that they know their faith do not know it, it is easily proven how wrong some of them are when simply looking at what the Catechism states. There is a lot of wrong info about the Catholic Church online, and I've seen ample amounts of wrong info used by our Christian brothers against Catholics.

Using false information is not of Christ.

Examples; Ian Paisley, Rick Jones, Boettner and Jack Chick all lie about what the Catholic Church teaches. Many Christians believe that they know the teachings of the Catholic Church and then try to win Catholics by using Ian's, Rick's, Boettner's, and Jacks lies. Bearing false witness is not the Christian way to do things. Catholics who don't know their own faith will easily leave their Church because of the lies of the men mentioned above. Once these people who leave the Catholic Church because of lies find out that they left because of lies, they can turn bitter toward their Christian brothers and loose faith in Christ altogether.

That is my concern. That Christians use truth when evangelizing. Using misunderstandings about Catholic teachings is not using truth.


Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach

 

I have to disagree on some of your points. The Catholic Church does teach the things that you say that they do not. The Catholic Church can also back up their teachings with their interpretation/context of Scripture.

The problem is that people are lazy, and there are a lot of people in the Catholic Church that are lazy. This is a problem for all faiths. There will always be some who don't think about God enough and get dragged down by Satan and self centeredness. We are living in the self centered age and it's easy for people to loose sight of what brings true happiness. And that is Christ.


God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach

 

I've posted numerous times that all you need to do is show me with a link to the Catechism where I am wrong, and I will change my view.

See, I've actually read large parts of the Catechism and haven't found a single contradiction.

Everyone here can go to the Catechism and see who's right. As I have also stated, and asked someone to correct me with links to it so that I may know the truth to what the Catholic Church teaches. Hasn't happened yet.

If I'm wrong it would be easy to prove it with links to the Catechism...
Here is the link to the entire table of contents:

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm

It is the same one that I bought a few years ago and have been reading during my research of what the Catholic Church teaches.

I say, correct me with links and I'll change my view, or be corrected.

Christ rejoices in Truth.

Bro. James,
The point to my dialog is what the Catholic Church teaches, NOT if they are right or wrong in what they believe about Scripture.

I keep stressing this and people keep missing the point, there is no need for you to say that you think that they are wrong. If you thought they were right, then you'd be Catholic.

Constantine was not a Pope. The Catholic Church teaches that the Pope is the Successor of Peter.

This is not about if you think they are right or not, this is about what they teach and why.


If people cannot get past their hate for Catholics, then they have a lot to learn about Christ.


Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach

 

I'm confused as to why you need people to point out things 'about the Catholic Church' when you have chosen 'Sirach' as your username. That name refers to a 'book' not recognized by Protestants as scripture.