about the Catholic Church

[Sirach]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Sirach,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"The Catholic Church teaches that it is by Grace that we make it to Heaven."

No they do not. If they did then they would not be propagating the devilish lie that justification through faith alone if false, and we must add our works to it.

Its absolulty amazing. You make that statement in reference to a passage of scripture that you must not have even read. If you had read it, you would have seen what God actually said, and why that passage of scripture destroys the Catholics false justification theology.

Read it again...

"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, then grace would no longer be grace." - Romans 11:6

According to God, the 2 are contradictory. Its grace...or its works.

But it CAN....NOT...BE...BOTH.

The catholic church is talking out of both sides of their mouth, (or "speaking with forked tongue") when they say they believe that our justification is by grace, but that we must add our works to it to be saved.

That is complete nonsense.

God bless,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Bro,

I'm not debating that the Catholic Church has the right interpretation of Scripture. I am pointing out what the Catholic Church teaches.

It seems that others on this thread keep posting Scripture to my posts about what the Catholic Chruch teaches, and they're missing the point that I am not arguing that the Catholic Church is right in regards to Scripture. What I am posting is their interpretation of it and what they really teach.


I am correct on Catholic teaching, as pieces from the Catechism and link to it that I posted attest to.

And as for your interpretation of 1 Tim 3:15, it does not make sense in a Catholic's eyes in the light of other scriptures.... John 14, Matt 18:17, Matt 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 2 Tim 3:14-16, 2 Thess 2:15, 2 Tim 2:2, Eph 3:5, Eph 2:20, 1 Corin 11:2

Catholics believe in special regard to John 14 and Luke 10:16... Truth cannot contradict Truth, Jesus is not wrong and does not lie... Therefore if the bible was all we needed to know Christ, then we all would have the same interpretation and would not disagree with each other.

That is why it's important to read what the first Christians wrote about the Scriptures. We know that the Church that Christ built will never be overcome, any Church that cannot trace itself back to 33 AD - in Faith and lineage, cannot be the Church Christ built. Anyone can buy the writings at www.Logos.com titled "Early Church Fathers"... here is the link:
http://www.logos.com/products/details/518

Something I find VERY interesting is that they have two versions. Here is what they say about them:

The Early Church Fathers CD-ROM comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text.

You can also read the exact same writings for free at: http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/


One might ask you "How can I trust your interpretation of Scripture or history when you claim you know what the Catholic Church teaches and you are proven wrong by the Catechism of the Catholic Church on what the Catholic Church teaches?"


Again I stress that I am not saying that the Catholic Church is correct, I am simply stating what they teach and why. There are many millions of Catholics who have a profound love of our Lord Jesus Christ... Therefore I love them for that. I love anyone who loves our Lord.

1 Corin. 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


Please note: "it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth."

Here is a quote that I find interesting...
"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."
~ Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John

Even if we disagree with our Catholic brethren in Christ, out of the Love for Christ and neighbor, we must get what they really teach correct.


The Catholics DO believe that we are saved by the Grace of our Lord. As every Catholic website that I've ever been to attests to.

Everyone can look it up in the Catechism for thereselves, and I ask that they do, if I'm wrong, please show me with a link to it. If Mike is wrong, please show him with a link to it.

For when we are wrong and get corrected we win by learning the truth, and that person who corrects us wins by being able to help a brother or sister out in learning the truth.

God Bless,
Sirach
(name of thread changed to conform with rules. No personal names are permitted in the title of the thread)

[ March 13, 2005, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Living4Him]

Everyone can look it up in the Catechism for thereselves, and I ask that they do,

Those that wish to read the catechism, need to read it in it's entirity.

It is easy to draw the wrong conclusion by taking little snippets out. Just as with the Bible, if you do not look at the Bible in it's entirity you will come up with only half the story.

 

[Bugman]

The Catholics DO believe that we are saved by the Grace of our Lord.

Yes, but they add in the economy of salvation.

It is not so much that the RCC teaches Salvation by works in the sense that if you do good deeds you go to heaven but that their whole definition of justification is different, and more importantly it's synergestic; man and God working together, which is why I am willing to call it a works based salvation.

John Calvin's "Antidoteto the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent on the Doctrine of Justification" which can be found online is helpful when looking at why Protestants should really disagree with Rome over justification.

Bryan
SDG

 

[Living4Him]

The catholic church is talking out of both sides of their mouth, (or "speaking with forked tongue") when they say they believe that our justification is by grace, but that we must add our works to it to be saved.

According to Scripture, sanctification and justification aren’t just one-time events, but are ongoing processes in the life of the believer.

Both can be spoken of as past-time events, as Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 6:11: "But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Sanctification is also a present, ongoing process, as the author of Hebrews notes: "For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified" (Heb. 10:14).

In regard to justification also being an on-going process, compare Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6 with both Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:1-4 and James 2:21-23; Genesis 22:1-18. In these passages, Abraham's justification is advanced on three separate occasions.

 

[Sirach]

Originally posted by Bugman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Catholics DO believe that we are saved by the Grace of our Lord.

Yes, but they add in the economy of salvation.

It is not so much that the RCC teaches Salvation by works in the sense that if you do good deeds you go to heaven but that their whole definition of justification is different, and more importantly it's synergestic; man and God working together, which is why I am willing to call it a works based salvation.

John Calvin's "Antidoteto the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent on the Doctrine of Justification" which can be found online is helpful when looking at why Protestants should really disagree with Rome over justification.

Bryan
SDG </font>[/QUOTE]Bryan,

I'm not arguing that the Catholic Church is right or wrong, what I am stating is simply what they teach. There are some people that believe that the Catholics do not use the bible, when in fact they read the Bible at every Mass, 364 days a year.


Looking at the Catholic Churches point of view, it's not adding to salvation at all, what they believe they are doing is what Christ commanded.

Ref: John 6, 1 Corin. 11:23-29, Acts 2:38, Matt. 28:19-20, John 20:21-23, Matt. 18:18, 2 Cor. 2:10, 2 Cor. 5:18, James 5:15-16

The Catholic Church calls anything where God is involved "Sacraments". The Catholic Church basically teaches that things Jesus said we need to do are things we need to do. They believe that the Eucharist is the body of Christ as said in John 6, and they point out John 6:66 for people who disagree with them. If God wants to make a little piece of bread His Body by pouring His Spirit into it, then He can do that. He is God.

Here is what the Catechism says about Sacraments:

1116
Sacraments are "powers that comes forth" from the Body of Christ,33 which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant.
...

1131
The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.


... the above and more can be found at:
Paschal Mystery in the Church's Sacraments


Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach

 

[D28guy]

Sirach,

It was posted...

"The Catholic Church teaches that it is by Grace that we make it to Heaven."

And I said....

No they do not. If they did then they would not be propagating the devilish lie that justification through faith alone if false, and we must add our works to it.

Its absolulty amazing. You make that statement in reference to a passage of scripture that you must not have even read. If you had read it, you would have seen what God actually said, and why that passage of scripture destroys the Catholics false justification theology.

Read it again...

"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, then grace would no longer be grace." - Romans 11:6

According to God, the 2 are contradictory. Its grace...or its works.

But it CAN....NOT...BE...BOTH.

The catholic church is talking out of both sides of their mouth, (or "speaking with forked tongue") when they say they believe that our justification is by grace, but that we must add our works to it to be saved.

That is complete nonsense.

God bless,

Mike

And you now say...

Bro,

I'm not debating that the Catholic Church has the right interpretation of Scripture. I am pointing out what the Catholic Church teaches.

But you're not. You are not pointing out what they teach. You are saying what they want to decieve people into thinking they are saying. You are saying that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is attained by grace.

But according to God...and all you have to do is read the passage of scripture I gave 1st, and have repeated in the quote in this post...if someone is teaching that we are saved by grace, they CAN NOT say we must add our works to be saved.

If we are saved by grace...works can have no part. If our works are required...it is not by grace. According to God, they are mutually exclusive...

"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, then grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6)

Rome teaches a works justification system. Almighty Gods justification system is that we are justified by grace, through faith alone in Jesus Christ. It can be no other way, because then grace would not be grace.

God places His curse on any justification system that requires works, and blesses justification through faith alone.

The Catholic Church promotes justification through works, and places its curse on justification by faith alone.

Which is in fact, the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Sadly,

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Hmmm...Jesus Christ Himself might disagree with you there: you've already had the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats quoted to you on the old thread; everything about works there, nothing about faith...I think Jesus is better qualified to know what His Gospel is, don't you think?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Bro. James]

How does one know what the RCC teaches? The teachings seem to change like the color of the skin on a chameleon. e.g. When I was under the pervue of the "holy see", circa: 1950's, it was a "mortal sin" to eat meat on Fridays--unless it was the "meat" of a fish. Apparently, now it is not a mortal sin unless it on a High Holy Day--when it is still allowed to eat the meat of a fish. How does one keep up with all this legalistic "mombo jambo"? Where is the current list of High Holy Days? What about fish with skin and not scales?

Carne es carne es carne.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Sirach]

Bro James,

It you think about it, the "legalistic mumbo jumbo", helps train Catholics to resist greater temptations. It is discipline. Also, the Catholics believe that because of Christ giving the Apostles the power to bind and loose, that through Apostolic Succession, that power is carried on with the new disciples that take the "office" of the Apostles when they died, and so on.

What the Catholic Church teaches is that Catholics should give something up for Christ on every Friday, because that is the day that Christ gave up His life for us. During the 8 weeks of Lent, meat is given up. Catholics should be giving something up for Christ every Friday of the year, unless it's a feast day. By feast, they don't mean gordging yourself, they mean as in a celebration. The Catholic Church celebrates people that lead good examples of Christian lives, and they believe without doubt that they are in Heaven with Our Lord - they call them Saints. Please remember, I'm not arguing if they are correct, I'm just trying to clarify what they teach.

I can totally understand why it's so confusing for people who are not Catholic, and even those who are. I was confused about it at one time and started studying what the Catholic Church teaches and why about 4 1/2 years ago. I've been reading up quite a bit on Catholicism from Catholic sources and it took some time to understand everything.

Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach

 

[steaver]

Hmmm...Jesus Christ Himself might disagree with you there: you've already had the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats quoted to you on the old thread; everything about works there, nothing about faith...I think Jesus is better qualified to know what His Gospel is, don't you think?

"everything about works, nothing about faith"?

If that is the criteria, one could conclude from this passage that no faith is needed for salvation because Jesus only spoke of the good works which were done to His brethern.

"Precept must be upon precept"

What about Jesus' conclusion, have you missed that?

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into everlasting life"(46)

The " righteous "?

Are you saved by your own righteousnesses?

Precept upon precept teaches us that our righteousnesses are as filthy rags (Is 64:6)

Precept upon precept teaches us that "By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God: Not by works, lest any man should boast" (Ehp 2:8-9)

Scripture defining Scripture. Furthermore Scripture calls these saved ones " sheep ". Sheep are always defined as those who have been born of God.

" I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine " (John 10:14)

"But ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep , as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:26-29)

What will you do with these facts? Will you dismiss them and go on preaching that this passage about the sheep and the goats is teaching that works plays a part in one's salvation, or will you scratch it off your list of "passages which support my view"?

This one clearly does not.

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Ti 2:15)

Don't you believe this passage? Doesn't the word of truth need to be divided rightly? We cannot just pluck out verses here and there. What we teach and believe about a passage must be defined by other Scriptures. God said, not me, that precept must be upon precept. That is how God teaches those who submit to His way of learning the Truth of the Scriptures. Read it for yourself in Isaiah 28. I caution you though that if you are using an NIV, the passage has been obliterated and you will not learn about this concept. I don't know about many other "translations" but I do know that the KJB states this perfectly clear.

God Bless!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Sirach:
Bro James,
I can totally understand why it's so confusing for people who are not Catholic,

Sirach

Why are you totally confused that many people here were Catholic, and act as if you don't believe it.
DHK

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Hmmm...Jesus Christ Himself might disagree with you there: you've already had the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats quoted to you on the old thread; everything about works there, nothing about faith...I think Jesus is better qualified to know what His Gospel is, don't you think?

"everything about works, nothing about faith"?

If that is the criteria, one could conclude from this passage that no faith is needed for salvation because Jesus only spoke of the good works which were done to His brethern.

"Precept must be upon precept"

What about Jesus' conclusion, have you missed that?

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into everlasting life"(46)

The " righteous "?

</font>[/QUOTE]The "righteous" in this passage are the ones who carry out the works of charity referred to therein.

This passage has to weighed with others that talk of faith-based salvation but evangelicals cannot dismiss this out of hand any more than Catholics should dismiss faith-based passages. Some kind of interpretative synthesis is clearly demanded

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Debby in Philly]

The sad thing I find in my own life's experience, is that most Catholics are not taught, and therefore do not "get" the fact that being a follower of Christ means having a change in the heart worked by the Holy Spirit (the second birth, being "born again"). They live in a manner that shows that they feel all that is necessary is participation in ritual - baptize infants, "make" Holy Communion, "make" Confirmation, go to mass. They trust in the belief that the priest somehow has "magic" power to bless them, forgive their sins, and that sacraments have "magic" power as well. Their lives and their attuitudes show no fruit of the Spirit at all. I know this because I grew up around Catholics, and am related to quite a few. Their worldview is very self centered, and their attitudes and conduct are no different than if they had no involvement in religion at all.

Don't get me wrong, this is not to say that SOME Catholics don't understand this. I have fellowshipped and worked alongside a number who do. It's just that the everyday practice and education of Catholics makes this concept difficult to recognize. So I say that Catholics who are "born again" are so in spite of their church, not necessarily because of it.

 

[Matt Black]

Most of the Catholics I know would say that such people are not proper Catholics and are probably in danger of losing their salvation...

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Sirach]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sirach:
Bro James,
I can totally understand why it's so confusing for people who are not Catholic,

Sirach

Why are you totally confused that many people here were Catholic, and act as if you don't believe it.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]It's not that I don't believe it, it's that many Catholics are wrong about what their Church teaches. They go to Mass on Sundays and they stopped their Catechesis in 8th grade, instead of continuing the study of their faith. Many do not pick up a bible during the week, and their minds wonder about things not related to the readings of Scripture in the Mass, they ignore the homilies.

They can't know their faith unless they study it. Everyone has a responsibility to know their faith and be able to give reason for our hope. If Catholics are to leave their Church, then they should at least leave for the right reasons and they can't do that if they leave because of misinformation and false witness to what the Catholic Church teaches.

Many Catholics who think that they know their faith do not know it, it is easily proven how wrong some of them are when simply looking at what the Catechism states. There is a lot of wrong info about the Catholic Church online, and I've seen ample amounts of wrong info used by our Christian brothers against Catholics.

Using false information is not of Christ.

Examples; Ian Paisley, Rick Jones, Boettner and Jack Chick all lie about what the Catholic Church teaches. Many Christians believe that they know the teachings of the Catholic Church and then try to win Catholics by using Ian's, Rick's, Boettner's, and Jacks lies. Bearing false witness is not the Christian way to do things. Catholics who don't know their own faith will easily leave their Church because of the lies of the men mentioned above. Once these people who leave the Catholic Church because of lies find out that they left because of lies, they can turn bitter toward their Christian brothers and loose faith in Christ altogether.

That is my concern. That Christians use truth when evangelizing. Using misunderstandings about Catholic teachings is not using truth.


Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach

 

[Sirach]

Originally posted by Debby in Philly:
The sad thing I find in my own life's experience, is that most Catholics are not taught, and therefore do not "get" the fact that being a follower of Christ means having a change in the heart worked by the Holy Spirit (the second birth, being "born again"). They live in a manner that shows that they feel all that is necessary is participation in ritual - baptize infants, "make" Holy Communion, "make" Confirmation, go to mass. They trust in the belief that the priest somehow has "magic" power to bless them, forgive their sins, and that sacraments have "magic" power as well. Their lives and their attuitudes show no fruit of the Spirit at all. I know this because I grew up around Catholics, and am related to quite a few. Their worldview is very self centered, and their attitudes and conduct are no different than if they had no involvement in religion at all.

Don't get me wrong, this is not to say that SOME Catholics don't understand this. I have fellowshipped and worked alongside a number who do. It's just that the everyday practice and education of Catholics makes this concept difficult to recognize. So I say that Catholics who are "born again" are so in spite of their church, not necessarily because of it.

I have to disagree on some of your points. The Catholic Church does teach the things that you say that they do not. The Catholic Church can also back up their teachings with their interpretation/context of Scripture.

The problem is that people are lazy, and there are a lot of people in the Catholic Church that are lazy. This is a problem for all faiths. There will always be some who don't think about God enough and get dragged down by Satan and self centeredness. We are living in the self centered age and it's easy for people to loose sight of what brings true happiness. And that is Christ.


God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach

 

[DHK]

You claim that Paisley, Boettner, et.al., misrepresent the truth. In reality it is you that misrepresents the truth. I have seen that over and over again on this board. I have even issued you a challenge which went without a response. You quote snippets of the catechism here and there to try and prove a point. But the catechism contradicts itself in so many places it is ridiculous. Thus you can claim to say anything you want.

I have already posted to this effect before.
I have taken all of your quotes from the catechism and categorically shown you how the teachings contradict both each other and the Bible itself.

For example you gave a quote that the church believes in salvation through grace and faith in the passion (sufferings) of Christ.
That was a good statement.

But all the other various doctrines and heresies of the Catholic Church contradict it.
The doctrine of purgatory negates that doctrine immediately. If the passion of Christ, his sufferings, provide for our salvation, then why does one have to spend time in purgatory being purged for the same sins that Christ already suffered for. That is what is called damnable heresy.

If Christ paid the full penalty of our sin by his sufferings in his passion through grace and faith in Him, then why would baptism be necessary to salvation. Baptism is a work of man, not of God. You say on the one hand we are saved by God's grace, and turn around on the other and say we are saved and even born again by baptism. That is heresy.

Those are just a couple of examples. Yes, I know what the Catholic Church teaches. You misrepresent what the Catholic Church teaches, and you have been doing that ever since you have been posting here.
DHK

 

[Bro. James]

May we move to something a little more testable than all of this "ecumenical prittle-prattle"?

That which is known as the RCC today came from an unholy marriage of "a church??" and the State at the hands of the one called Constantine The Great, one of many emperors of Rome. It seems Constantine had a dream in which he was given a sign(of the cross??) and the words: in hoc signo vinces. Constantine may have been the first pope--he called a council at Nicea, circa 325 A.D. It is not clear who presided--many of the so-called historians during this time seem a bit confused at to what really happened. Anyway, the rest is "history"(according to the Catholic Encyclopedia for certain). Sorry, I left out all the popes from 325 back to Peter--on purpose--they exist only in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

What really happened and the real story of what happened to the Assembly which Jesus said He would build seems to be hard to find save in the scriptures themselves. Perhaps that is why The Word was kept secret from the "ignorant" for so long--and in reality is still hidden from those called "Catholic". Is that why the first translations of Scripture into English were confiscated and burned and the translators murdered? The Elect still had The Word and they were preaching everywhere they went. The Jesuits could not kill them all--but they tried.

Indeed, the Scripture tells a much different account of what the Assembly that Jesus is building is about.

Beware the wolves dressed like sheep.

Selah,

Bro. James

[ March 14, 2005, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]

 

[Sirach]

I've posted numerous times that all you need to do is show me with a link to the Catechism where I am wrong, and I will change my view.

See, I've actually read large parts of the Catechism and haven't found a single contradiction.

Everyone here can go to the Catechism and see who's right. As I have also stated, and asked someone to correct me with links to it so that I may know the truth to what the Catholic Church teaches. Hasn't happened yet.

If I'm wrong it would be easy to prove it with links to the Catechism...
Here is the link to the entire table of contents:

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm

It is the same one that I bought a few years ago and have been reading during my research of what the Catholic Church teaches.

I say, correct me with links and I'll change my view, or be corrected.

Christ rejoices in Truth.

Bro. James,
The point to my dialog is what the Catholic Church teaches, NOT if they are right or wrong in what they believe about Scripture.

I keep stressing this and people keep missing the point, there is no need for you to say that you think that they are wrong. If you thought they were right, then you'd be Catholic.

Constantine was not a Pope. The Catholic Church teaches that the Pope is the Successor of Peter.

This is not about if you think they are right or not, this is about what they teach and why.


If people cannot get past their hate for Catholics, then they have a lot to learn about Christ.


Your Servant in Christ,
Sirach

 

[dianetavegia]

I'm confused as to why you need people to point out things 'about the Catholic Church' when you have chosen 'Sirach' as your username. That name refers to a 'book' not recognized by Protestants as scripture.

In the Catholic Church, the following books are considered deuterocanonical: Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch; as well as some additions to Esther and Daniel. The various Orthodox churches include a few others, often including 3 Maccabees, Psalm 151, 1 Esdras, Odes, Psalms of Solomon, and occasionally even 4 Maccabees. This last book is often relegated to an appendix, because it has certain tendencies approaching pagan thought.