According to Dave Hunt, It's a Good Thing That I was Arminian First...

[Me4Him]

The "Natural man" is at emnity with God, and always will be, this is the "totally depraved" side of man, but we are also a "Spiritual being", a "SOUL", and it's to that "SOUL" (spirit) the "Spirit of God" speaks, spirit to spirit.

"flesh is flesh", "Spirit is spirit", the "LAW" was given that we might "know sin", and regardless of how sinful the flesh becomes, the "SOUL" will never become so depraved it doesn't still knows "right from wrong", excluding "physical insanity".

While the Natural man (flesh) won't seek God, the "SOUL" certainly is aware of God and his "LAW".


Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Am 5:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:

Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;

One of the big problems Christian have is to make up doctrines under the conditions of NT and without considering the conditions under the OT.

Israel didn't have a "COMFORTER" in the OT to personally call each individual, people only "HEARD" the prophets and believed/or not.

But the point is, unless God has "redesigned" man from the OT to the NT, people are the same, if OT people could/would seek God without the "COMFORTER" calling, why can't/won't NT people??

Calvin says without the "COMFORTER CALLING", they won't, OT says they "WILL".

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

 

[Pastor Larry]

First, the "comforter" of Ecc 4:1 isn't the Holy Spirit.

Second, people in the OT needed the work of the Spirit to believe, just as they do in the NT> These are straw men.

 

[Ray Berrian]

If you take time to sincerely study the Word of God you will see that the laity were not indwelled by the Spirit of God, though they were the people of God. The indwelling of the Spirit is a N.T. phenomenon only.

Yes, in the O.T. the priests, kings of Israel, prophets and a few people who worked on the building of the Temple were indwelled by His Spirit.

Why do you think the O.T. people were always backsliding? They at the time of the Law and afterward had the Law as a guide but no inner anchor of the soul.

From the time of Abraham the people lived by their faith in Jehovah Lord and listened to the prophets if they were near. They obeyed the animal sacrifices as God and the priests required.

No one in the N.T. had the Spirit until the evening of Jesus resurrection [John 20:21-22].

The indwelling of the Spirit, the sealing of the Spirit, being baptized in the Spirit and being anointed by the Spirit happens to every saved person since the Day of Pentecost.

If you have troule finding the 'anointing' it is found in I John 2:27. The rest of the ministrations of the Holy Spirit are found in the epistles of the Apostle Paul.

 

[Paul33]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
So what is the purpose of predestination if God "foreknew" what they would choose anyway? It sounds an awful like lot something God didn't need to do. They were going to be saved anyway. Election, or predestination, accomplishes something. It is not merely a throw in after God already knows what will happen. It is never presented in Scripture that way.

I think the bigger problem is the misunderstanding of foreknow. In salvation, it is not simply knowing ahead of time. As rom 11:2 indicates, it is a choosing.

Keep the distinction between "before the creation of the earth" and the "here and now" and predestination is very important.

Predestination simply means that God is going to do what his mind has conceived. He has determined beforehand that those whom he forknew in Christ would in fact be called in real time and space. So when God created the universe, he also predestined those whom he foreknew.

God chooses us on the basis of his predestined plan. No one chooses God. We either rebel or we don't. But God saves by grace through faith. Something only he can do. Now those who stop rebelling can take no credit for being saved. They did nothing!

 

[Paul33]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
The "Natural man" is at emnity with God, and always will be, this is the "totally depraved" side of man, but we are also a "Spiritual being", a "SOUL", and it's to that "SOUL" (spirit) the "Spirit of God" speaks, spirit to spirit.

"flesh is flesh", "Spirit is spirit", the "LAW" was given that we might "know sin", and regardless of how sinful the flesh becomes, the "SOUL" will never become so depraved it doesn't still knows "right from wrong", excluding "physical insanity".

While the Natural man (flesh) won't seek God, the "SOUL" certainly is aware of God and his "LAW".


Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Am 5:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:

Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;

One of the big problems Christian have is to make up doctrines under the conditions of NT and without considering the conditions under the OT.

Israel didn't have a "COMFORTER" in the OT to personally call each individual, people only "HEARD" the prophets and believed/or not.

But the point is, unless God has "redesigned" man from the OT to the NT, people are the same, if OT people could/would seek God without the "COMFORTER" calling, why can't/won't NT people??

Calvin says without the "COMFORTER CALLING", they won't, OT says they "WILL".

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Interesting. I will have to chew on this a little. "Christ lifted up" draws humanity to Christ. This is true in both testaments, because Christ was lifted up before the foundation of the world.

 

[Paul33]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
If you take time to sincerely study the Word of God you will see that the laity were not indwelled by the Spirit of God, though they were the people of God. The indwelling of the Spirit is a N.T. phenomenon only.

Yes, in the O.T. the priests, kings of Israel, prophets and a few people who worked on the building of the Temple were indwelled by His Spirit.

Why do you think the O.T. people were always backsliding? They at the time of the Law and afterward had the Law as a guide but no inner anchor of the soul.

From the time of Abraham the people lived by their faith in Jehovah Lord and listened to the prophets if they were near. They obeyed the animal sacrifices as God and the priests required.

No one in the N.T. had the Spirit until the evening of Jesus resurrection [John 20:21-22].

The indwelling of the Spirit, the sealing of the Spirit, being baptized in the Spirit and being anointed by the Spirit happens to every saved person since the Day of Pentecost.

If you have troule finding the 'anointing' it is found in I John 2:27. The rest of the ministrations of the Holy Spirit are found in the epistles of the Apostle Paul.

If I understand you correctly, people who backslide today do not have the Spirit, only a man-made profession. If they had the Spirit, they wouldn't backslide.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Paul33:

God chooses us on the basis of his predestined plan. No one chooses God.

Let's rephrase that sentence.

God chooses us on the basis of his "FOREKNOWLEDGE" of our "CHOICE", to conform to his predestined plan.

Knowing what choices people will make before they make them and chosing accordingly, is not predestinating them to make that choice.

God hated Esau, but why, he foreknew Esau would sell his birthright, but suppose Esau had not sold that birthright, would God have still hated him for "no reason"??

We know that the saved go to heaven, unsaved go to hell, but does our "foreknowledge" predestine these to their respective places, of course not, and neither does God's foreknowledge.

The "Stewardship" God gave Adam/Man over the world still exist today, and like Adam, our future, the world's future, depends on the "CHOICES" we make.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


I think the bigger problem is the misunderstanding of foreknow. In salvation, it is not simply knowing ahead of time. As rom 11:2 indicates, it is a choosing.

Ro 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Israel was chosen as a nation to be a "light to the Gentiles".

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

And Jesus was only sent to "ISRAEL".

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And told the disciples not to preach to the Gentiles and initally refused to heal the Daug: of a gentile woman.

Mt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mt 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to "dogs". (gentiles)

God's inital plan called for Israel to "preach the gospel", but Israel. lacking "FAITH", rejected that opportunity.

Did God "predestinate" Israel to reject him, if he did, the sin belongs to God, not Israel, and Israel would have "Rebelled" against God's "predestine plan" by accepting Jesus.

Man's Choices, can/does alter the course of the world.

 

[Monergist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:

Knowing what choices people will make before they make them and chosing accordingly, is not predestinating them to make that choice.

Its a great misconception among non-calvinists that this argument somehow gets them off the hook with the whole foreknowledge/predestination/free-will thing. But it doesn't.

Assume for a moment that you are correct in stating that God merely "predestined" according to what choices man would make. By His foreknowing what choices would be made, the choices are unalterable. Which goes right back to the whole objection to predestination; that predetermined choices cannot be real choices.

So I ask you, if God foreknew all the choices that you made today, which of those choices could you have made differently from what already He foreknew? Did you feel like a robot when you made them?

[ October 06, 2005, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Monergist ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

IF predestination and election were decreed by the Lord unto everlasting life,and eternal punishment, who is man to stop His autocratic ways [Romans 9:18-23]

This view of predestination requires a decree and faith is really not necessary because who can counter what the Lord does in all things. Do you really think God needs a person's faith in this Augustinian/Calvinistic formulated quasi-theology. No!

God decrees salvation and damnation. Done deal! Thus, the 'Howdy Doody' religion that started long before the 1950's.

Does the Lord require our response to His call of the Gospel; yes! [John 3:16 & I John 5:10 & 13].

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Monergist:
Assume for a moment that you are correct in stating that God merely "predestined" according to what choices man would make. By His foreknowing what choices would be made, the choices are unalterable.

Yes, "IF", you place God within the framework of "TIME", but suppose God is outside that framework of time??

Suppose God can look at any period of time, any life, and "SEE" how that person responds to the gospel and then choses accordingly.

The Choice then isn't "unalterable", because God is not restricted to that time frame, and neither is his choice.

You may have to think about this for a time to understand it.

God doesn't "FORCE" man to chose either way, that's why man is Redeemed/Condemned according to the choice offer to him.

 

[Monergist]

WE live in time and our choices were known by God BEFORE THE FOUNATION OF THE WORLD. Our 'choices' were determined thousands of years ago, at least-- I say by predestination, you say by merely foreknowing--in this case for sake of argument it doesn't matter, THEY STILL WERE DETERMINED.

Unless you posit an everchanging, evolving "god" who's always learning new things, you are merely sidestepping and ignoring the obvious when you make this argument.

I may someday be convinced that what I have believed is heresy; but absurd and contradictory arguments like that will never convince me.

 

[4His_glory]

Me4Him,

You claim that man is condemened or redeemed by a choice of his making, yet the Scriptures are clear that man is condemed all ready.

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by Monergist:
WE live in time and our choices were known by God BEFORE THE FOUNATION OF THE WORLD. Our 'choices' were determined thousands of years ago, at least-- I say by predestination, you say by merely foreknowing--in this case for sake of argument it doesn't matter, THEY STILL WERE DETERMINED.

Unless you posit an everchanging, evolving "god" who's always learning new things, you are merely sidestepping and ignoring the obvious when you make this argument.

I may someday be convinced that what I have believed is heresy; but absurd and contradictory arguments like that will never convince me.

Amen mongergist! I am thankful my God doesn't change His mind.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi T cassidy;

What you fail to understand is that, apart from the grace of God, you could not accept it. You think your will is free, but, in fact, it is not. It is bound to the law of sin and death.

I disagree;
You can only have it that way if, when you are bound to Christ you can no longer sin. All the saved still sin.
If this is so then a man who is bound to sin can see and understand what is spiritual and can make a choice. The saved can make a choice just as the sinner. Choice is given man all through the Bible and never anywhere in scripture is that choice ever denied to man.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Paul 33;

Predestination is something God does to those whom he foreknew (Romans 8:29).

Those whom God foreknew he determined beforehand that they would indeed be conformed to the likeness of his Son.

True and you cannot be predestined until you are foreknown.

The problem with these discussions is the failure to distinguish between what took place in the mind of God before the foundation of the earth and what takes place in time and space in the here and now.

Even in the mind of God before the foundation of the world. Man was not foreknown, because man simply did not exsist. Christ was foreknown because He exsisted.
To know someone is to meet them person to person A man comes to know of God upon conviction. With out this conviction he cannot be saved. Upon hearing the gospel all are convicted in varying degrees. Some respond, some don't.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
You will notice in this verse says ("He has chosen us in Him"). We are not in Him until we are saved. It is when we are saved that we become part of Him.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

How is it we obtain what is predestined before the foundation of the world? If we are foreknown then we obtained it before we were born. Impossible!

God can know this about the creatures he is going to create and still not be responsible for their choices.

If God knows how they will turn out and still creates them then to go hell. Then He is responsible.
Just like the Architec who designs a building. If he designs the building to fail He is responsible. Man doesn't fail because of the designer. Man fails because the designer designed him with the ability to fail, or succeed. Success in standing, is with in man's choice when called, or comes to the knowledge of the path.

It is when we stop striving againt the LORD (rebelling) that he grants us the gift of regeneration, repentance, and faith

It still takes that choice to stop rebelling.
Conviction is what wins man over not regeneration.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Me4him;
Good post at the top of this page.
Amen
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Monergist;

Unless you posit an everchanging, evolving "god" who's always learning new things, you are merely sidestepping and ignoring the obvious when you make this argument.

God does change His mind it's biblical.
Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

He changes his mind about man all the time. Would you like another example?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

4Hisglory;

You claim that man is condemened or redeemed by a choice of his making, yet the Scriptures are clear that man is condemed all ready.

Condemned already yes, but stays that way because it's his own choosing.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
IF predestination and election were decreed by the Lord unto everlasting life,and eternal punishment, who is man to stop His autocratic ways [Romans 9:18-23]

So, Ray, you see the Sovereignty of God as making God a despot rather than a loving Heavenly Father?

This view of predestination requires a decree and faith is really not necessary because who can counter what the Lord does in all things. Do you really think God needs a person's faith in this Augustinian/Calvinistic formulated quasi-theology. No!

So, Ray, you think God lied with He said that faith is required for salvation?

God decrees salvation and damnation. Done deal!

So, Ray, you think it is God, and not sin, that sends people to hell?

Thus, the 'Howdy Doody' religion that started long before the 1950's.

Ray, do you really have so little regard for your brothers in Christ that you call us such vile names and speak of the glorious gospel of Christ in such a demeaning manner?

Does the Lord require our response to His call of the Gospel; yes! [John 3:16 & I John 5:10 & 13].

And nobody has said any differently, Ray. All that has been said is that our response is the result of His grace, and not something we work up in our dead flesh as Helen said with the "dead man reaching up" nonsense. If you want to call particular redemption "Howdy Doody" religion, should we start calling Helen's system "Zomby religion" - what with all those dead people reaching up out of the grave to grasp hold of Christ?