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According to Dave Hunt, It's a Good Thing That I was Arminian First...
- Thread starter Monergist
- Start date
Ray Berrian
New Member
Whatever,
What if God were to take the earth and cast it and us to a distant galaxy. Surely He has the power to do this but it is against His plan.
"WHAT IF GOD in order to show His wrath and power known would have sent us all to destruction, but instead He was patient with human beings, giving them an opportunity to receive His Son. Those who did were made fit to see His glory."
God through the Apostle Paul keeps this all in the realm of the "hypothetical" just as ILVLIGHT also has told you. 'WHAT IF GOD . . .(were to to do this or that). Calvinism rudely suggests that God decided to save some and damn the rest. This faulty view places this in the realm of reality and not where it was meant to be, in the hypothetical realm.
To autocratically save some and damn others is against the Godhead's plan. Also, it would be a contradiction to God's attribute of His Divine justice to favor one soul for Heaven and the other for Hell.
Find a good theological book on the Attributes of God. This will give you a more balanced and Godlike theological understanding.
Read Romans 2:11; Deuteronomy 10:17; II Chronicles 19:7.
What if God were to take the earth and cast it and us to a distant galaxy. Surely He has the power to do this but it is against His plan.
"WHAT IF GOD in order to show His wrath and power known would have sent us all to destruction, but instead He was patient with human beings, giving them an opportunity to receive His Son. Those who did were made fit to see His glory."
God through the Apostle Paul keeps this all in the realm of the "hypothetical" just as ILVLIGHT also has told you. 'WHAT IF GOD . . .(were to to do this or that). Calvinism rudely suggests that God decided to save some and damn the rest. This faulty view places this in the realm of reality and not where it was meant to be, in the hypothetical realm.
To autocratically save some and damn others is against the Godhead's plan. Also, it would be a contradiction to God's attribute of His Divine justice to favor one soul for Heaven and the other for Hell.
Find a good theological book on the Attributes of God. This will give you a more balanced and Godlike theological understanding.
Read Romans 2:11; Deuteronomy 10:17; II Chronicles 19:7.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Whatever;
The whole problem is that Paul never said this was true. However many a hyper Calvinist believe it to be so. All men were created for the soul purpose to worship God willingly. It is a diabolical notion that God created most of the world for destruction.
The only doctrine that went pop was about those vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. Actually it went boom.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
In the first place, the justice of it is what tells us that the Lord did not create men for destruction. Simply He could not do so and remain Just.Paul says that if that scenario were true then God would still be perfectly just. You say that if that scenario were true then God would be unjust. "Pop" goes your doctrine.
The whole problem is that Paul never said this was true. However many a hyper Calvinist believe it to be so. All men were created for the soul purpose to worship God willingly. It is a diabolical notion that God created most of the world for destruction.
The only doctrine that went pop was about those vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. Actually it went boom.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Whatever;
Just where did Paul say this;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Just where did Paul say this;
Please show the scripture?I only said what Paul said, that if it were true that God would not be unjust.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Ray Berrian
New Member
Hello Whatever,
You cannot say 'whatever' on the board without Scriptural backing as in you idea that the Lord can be unjust, a God of injustice. "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" do not count; Christians do not consider this the credible Word of God, any more than we Protestants and other non-Catholic Christians believe that the traditions and decrees of the Roman Catholic Church are on the same level as the Word of God.
As you know some of the views of Catholicism are elevated above the Word of God.
One decree is that Roman Catholic priests cannot marry when I Timothy 3:1 allows for the men in ministry to marry a wife.
You cannot say 'whatever' on the board without Scriptural backing as in you idea that the Lord can be unjust, a God of injustice. "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" do not count; Christians do not consider this the credible Word of God, any more than we Protestants and other non-Catholic Christians believe that the traditions and decrees of the Roman Catholic Church are on the same level as the Word of God.
As you know some of the views of Catholicism are elevated above the Word of God.
One decree is that Roman Catholic priests cannot marry when I Timothy 3:1 allows for the men in ministry to marry a wife.
Hello Dr. Berrian, Th. D.,
I do not say that the Lord can be unjust. I am uneducated, but I am trying to write intelligently so that you can understand. If I could say it in bigger words I would.
This one time about I heard something really cool. It was about this thing called a "red herring". They said that it happens when someone doesn't have an answer for you, so they try to change the subject. They said that some people actually do that, like when you are talking about what Paul said in chapter 9 of Romans about how if God did choose some for eternal blessing and others for eternal destruction, that would not be unfair, and then they start talking about Roman Catholics not letting their priests get married. I am sure that you have heard of this tactic.
There was this other thing too. They called it a "genetic fallacy". They said it was when somebody said that an idea was wrong because of where it came from. Can you believe people would fall for something so silly?
Anyway, I am sure that you know a lot more about all of that stuff than I do.
I do not say that the Lord can be unjust. I am uneducated, but I am trying to write intelligently so that you can understand. If I could say it in bigger words I would.
This one time about I heard something really cool. It was about this thing called a "red herring". They said that it happens when someone doesn't have an answer for you, so they try to change the subject. They said that some people actually do that, like when you are talking about what Paul said in chapter 9 of Romans about how if God did choose some for eternal blessing and others for eternal destruction, that would not be unfair, and then they start talking about Roman Catholics not letting their priests get married. I am sure that you have heard of this tactic.
There was this other thing too. They called it a "genetic fallacy". They said it was when somebody said that an idea was wrong because of where it came from. Can you believe people would fall for something so silly?
Anyway, I am sure that you know a lot more about all of that stuff than I do.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Whatever,
You and I would be good friends if you lived in our part of our state. I think you are really trying to search for the truth the Lord has for all of us to receive.
I was a pastor in the church for mega years and I never judged a person on the basis of education or lack of it. May of my favorite people have never been great students of the Word. The people who frustrate me are people who will not interpret the Word of God as it is written in the N.T.
Some of my members and friends were brilliant in their own area of expertise whether a carpenter, mechanic or a letter carrier.
I have no suggestions but you need to read some explanations of the Attributes of God. Some things God cannot do. For one He cannot sin. Some of the Christian attributes of God are: Love, Mercy, Justice, Wrath, Holiness and so on.
When you read the Bible then you will realize it is foolishness to believe that God saves some souls and damns others.
Read: Romans 2:11 and even in the O.T. God never played favorites among the children of humankind. Read Deuteronomy 10:17. Calvinism does not allow for God to be unbias toward all sinners. The Almighty Lord of the universe says that He died for all human beings [I Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 2:9; and I John 5:13; Revelation 22:17].
Regards,
"Ray"
Hi Ray,
Would you recommend Tozer on the Attributes of God? He is one of my favorites. I also like Charnock's "The Existence And Attributes Of God". You would probably enjoy it if you've not read it before, but it is not light reading.
I have read the Bible. I have read Romans 2:11, and ther rest of Romans too. I have also read Deuteronomy 10:17. It might come as a surprise to you, but I believe that Christ is the Savior of all men. He is especially the Savior of those who believe, and meditating on that particularity toward believers is what has led me to Calvinism.
Maybe we can be good friends in this part of the internet. I want you to know that I don't mean anything personal by the things I say. I have been accused of being arrogant, and unfortunately it is true. But I can take a ribbing as well as I can give one so feel free to poke fun if you like.
Would you recommend Tozer on the Attributes of God? He is one of my favorites. I also like Charnock's "The Existence And Attributes Of God". You would probably enjoy it if you've not read it before, but it is not light reading.
I have read the Bible. I have read Romans 2:11, and ther rest of Romans too. I have also read Deuteronomy 10:17. It might come as a surprise to you, but I believe that Christ is the Savior of all men. He is especially the Savior of those who believe, and meditating on that particularity toward believers is what has led me to Calvinism.
Maybe we can be good friends in this part of the internet. I want you to know that I don't mean anything personal by the things I say. I have been accused of being arrogant, and unfortunately it is true. But I can take a ribbing as well as I can give one so feel free to poke fun if you like.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Whatever,
Hey, I am pleased you are this knowledgeable. Wonderful! Yes I bought the book by Rev. Tozer on the "Attributes of God" but passed it along to another person to read. As I recall it was simple reading but good. I forget if Tozer explained the Justice of God, or not.
Thanks for the tip about Charnock's "The Existence & Attributes of God."
Wasn't Rev. Tozer a preacher for the Christian and Missionary Alliance Church? This denomination is really into world missions.
Regards . . .
Hey, I am pleased you are this knowledgeable. Wonderful! Yes I bought the book by Rev. Tozer on the "Attributes of God" but passed it along to another person to read. As I recall it was simple reading but good. I forget if Tozer explained the Justice of God, or not.
Thanks for the tip about Charnock's "The Existence & Attributes of God."
Wasn't Rev. Tozer a preacher for the Christian and Missionary Alliance Church? This denomination is really into world missions.
Regards . . .
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Ray And Whatever;
Tozer's books have really motivated me in my walk.
His book "The Root of Righteousness" was very moving.
This is his description of a Christian. I think it should stretch accross the Calvinism and Arminianism barrier
He feels supreme love for One he has never seen, talks familiarly everyday to someone he cannot see, expects to go to heaven on the virtuue of another, empties himself in order to be full, admits he is wrong so he can be declared right, goes down in order to get up, is strongest when he is weakest, richest when he is poorest, and happiest when he feels his worst. He dies so he can live, forsakes inorder to have, gives away so can keep, sees the invisable, hears the inaudible and knows that which passeth knowledge. And all the while he may be confounding his critics by his unbelievable practicality:
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Tozer's books have really motivated me in my walk.
His book "The Root of Righteousness" was very moving.
This is his description of a Christian. I think it should stretch accross the Calvinism and Arminianism barrier
He feels supreme love for One he has never seen, talks familiarly everyday to someone he cannot see, expects to go to heaven on the virtuue of another, empties himself in order to be full, admits he is wrong so he can be declared right, goes down in order to get up, is strongest when he is weakest, richest when he is poorest, and happiest when he feels his worst. He dies so he can live, forsakes inorder to have, gives away so can keep, sees the invisable, hears the inaudible and knows that which passeth knowledge. And all the while he may be confounding his critics by his unbelievable practicality:
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike