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I don't disagree with that statement because I actually believe God is more merciful than Paul because God also wants the hardened Jews to come to repentance. I just believe those who believe Paul is expressing a desire not shared by the God who is inspiring him to write are mistaken.
Which would make sense if you believed in contra-causal free will, but since you don't you have a God making all the decisions (ultimately) and thus seemingly contradicting himself over and over.
True. He chose to give it first to the Jew and then the Gentile (Rm 1:16; 11:32). They individually can choose to reject it or accept it. A gift doesn't have to be irresistibly applied for the giver to get all the credit for giving it. And a person who accepts a gift doesn't take credit for getting a gift he never deserved to receive.
you should know better than this by now.
The parenthetical word "ultimately" includes all the so-called 'secondary causes' of which God is said to use to bring about all that he has ordained, yes even the morally evil choices of mankind. In your system, it may appear the reprobate is 'freely' choosing to reject the gospel but the REAL cause is because God didn't choose him. The real cause is that he was born with a totally depraved nature given to him by God as a punishment for the sin of Adam. Those are 'secondary causes' which Calvinists speak of in their confessions so as to subtly invoke some sense of separation between God and the evil that He has ordained to come to pass. You can whitewash that view all you want, and I know your view is less "extreme" than some here but 'ULTIMATELY' it all leads to the same thing.
Paul disagrees.
That assumes God WANTs to apply his gift irresistibly and can't, which is not our view. God makes an appeal, according to Paul, not a irresistible inward transformation of the will.
Verse 6 says For they are not all Israel, which are of Isreal. Israel is refering to God's elect through the blood line of Jacob. God changed Jacob's name to Israel, Gen 32:28. Paul was not wishing himself accursed for the sake of the Israel nation that were not of "Israel, the elect". Many of the scriptures thereafter use Israel as God's elect.
As I have stated before, If you do not understand the depravity of man you will never understand the grace of God. We are all of a reprobate mind at times when we turn away from God and lust after the things of the world, and don't kid yourselves, none of us are imune to lusting after the things of the world at times. All of God's elect children are rotten to the core, if not for the imputed righteousness of Christ. God still choose us when we were in that condition. That is the grace of God.
not all are shown mercy. That is universalism. People in hell have not received mercy. That verse does not say that he does give all mercy. Read it a little more carefully.
God does not chasten the non-elect, he only chastens the elect. God would not have turned them over to a reprobate mind if they were not his elect. The rod of God is not upon those that are not his, Job 21:9.
Paul in 2 Thes 3:1-2, about to leave on a preaching tour, ask the brethren at the Thessalonian church to pray that he would be delivered from men who does not have faith. Paul preached to all men that had faith. God says, If they have not the Spirit, they are none of his, Rom 8:9.
God only died for those that God gave him, John 6:37-41. John 17:2, As thou hast given him power over all flesh (all mankind), that he should give eternal life to "as many as thou hast given him".Well, I could be wrong, but I really thought you disagreed with me.
My point is that Paul didn't atone for the sins of anyone, so he hardly could be called more merciful than God. Desire doesn't equal actually doing it. God has actually atoned for the sins of people, Paul has never done that. If God only saved one single person and sent everyone else to their deserved place of punishment, it would be the greatest act of mercy ever. God could have showed everyone mercy. The death of Christ is sufficient for everyone. The just payment sufficient for all has been made, but God has chosen to not show everyone mercy. You say, well God required faith to show mercy. Well, it was God that made that decision knowing that not all would believe.
And that is question begging because you are presuming mercy shown equals mercy irresistibly applied, which is a point up for debate.
The same All who are bound are the same all shown mercy.
I know that is what you said, and like your argument above, it begs the question by presuming that our view (where God's gift of mercy can be refused) makes God less than all powerful. That is like saying that because you chose not to manually force your 3 year old child to sit at the table for dinner than you aren't strong enough to do so.
You are not understanding then. It's not the application of mercy that i'm objecting to. Its the means and scope of the application which is not biblically supported that I'm objecting to. God is much more merciful than you give him credit for. He has mercy on the world, not a relative select few. He should get credit for making merciful provision and a genuine appeal to all man, not just a relative few.
Sure he does. His will is to be a stubborn rebellious sinner. God changes his will irresistibly to match His will. If I drug someone who is unwilling to get in my car so as to change their will wouldn't you call that 'against their will?' What you have to ask yourself is what makes someone's will their own? They determine it. You have NOTHING in your system on which to base any sense of independent human will. Its all God's will in your system. Its God's will they reject because HE determined their totally depraved nature and it is His will they accept because HE determine their regenerate nature. There is nothing about man's will that belongs to them in a deterministic world view.
How else does God give mercy? There is no question begging. God shows mercy. People in hell have not received mercy.
It doesn't say that. Read CAREFULLY to what it says. You are making an assumption that isn't there and is untrue. It's not much "mercy" if they don't receive the benefits of it. In context of our discussion, we are speaking of mercy from the punishment of sin. You cannot say that someone in hell has received mercy from hell while they are in hell.
not my argument at all. Don't try to change it like you did in the other thread. It's a red herring. Get back to my point. God is the one that saves, not man. Man doesn't save. God paid the price. He shows the mercy. You keep dodging my point. My point is that God 1) has the power to save everyone 2) has chosen not to save everyone. Whether you believe that God chooses whom he will save or that he chooses to save those that believe, he has chosen a plan that will not result in the salvation of all. The only way one can disagree with this is if he are a universalist. I'm not arguing which one of those views is the right one, but the basic truth behind either one of them.
I'm understanding just fine. We are speaking of mercy from the penalty of sin. Leave your red herring alone. People in hell have not received mercy from hell. God could have shown them mercy. He didn't. You say he didn't because they rejected him. Fine. He still chose to not show them mercy from the penalty of their sin.
No, straw man. you know better than this. I guess when one converts from Calvinism he has to go to his straw man hat. We do not believe anyone is saved against his will. To say anything else is to be disingenuous.
Yes, God convicts the heart of the sinner and changes it from a heard of stone to a heart of flesh. This person doesn't come to Christ against his will
Yes, but that's not even close to the same. Stop your stories. Stick to the Bible.
jbh28, I am usually right on to most of the positions that you hold to, but can you give me the scripture that says God desires all mankind to repent?
A spirtually DEAD person cannot receive a spiritual gift of grace. Eph 2:5. God's grace of quickening is given when we are still spiritually dead. The, spiritually dead (natural man) cannot receive anything that is of a spiritual nature, 1 Cor 2:15.
You've never showed mercy to someone who turned up their nose to you in rebellion? I have.
Ok, you are confusing two different points. You said, "Man rejecting God doesn't keep God from the power to show mercy to him. If that were true, then God wouldn't be all powerful." So, you are arguing that because God, being all powerful, COULD have shown mercy irresistibly and didn't that proves he doesn't desire all men to be saved, but that is QUESTION BEGGING, because it presumes it is NOT God's will for man to make a contra-causual free morally accountable decision. Even you acknowledge that God allows man to make a 'choice.' {Its not really their 'choice' in your system because its really God choice and they are merely reacting to the preordained secondary causes as they were made to do, but nevertheless you agree there is a CHOICE made by the agent.} You also agree that God's appeal to be reconcile IS universal in that the gospel is sent to all people.
Wrong. I say God did show them mercy by dying for them and inviting them to be reconciled. They didn't get mercy because they rejected the mercy being shown to them.
Yes, I have read Romans 1. It is a letter of Paul's written to the called of Jesus Christ, to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. I am still saying that you do not understand how depraved the children of God is without the righteousness of Christ. Would you place David as a child of God even though he comitted adultry, lied, and comitted murder? Paul, also, before he was converted, gathering those who followed Christ and put them in prison and even put them to death. Paul and David unterstood the grace of God because they understood the depravity of man.