savedbymercy
New Member
Then you believe a lie, for it was only sufficent for those it saved !
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Actual Atonement vs Potential Atonement
- Thread starter Earth Wind and Fire
- Start date
Then you believe a lie, for it was only sufficent for those it saved !
My Bible states that jesus was the propiation for the entire World, true that ONLY His elect can .will avail themselves of its provisions, but are you saying that the death of jesus was finite in its worth/value?
You'll be forgiven, but you may have to go to confession first; I mean, this is such a grave sin.
I’m Baptist, no confessional to go to. How ‘bout I just go three towns away instead of two to buy beer?
savedbymercy
New Member
dac
He was, The whole world He died for. You must do not know what propitiation means ! So your bible says many things that you do not understand !
The Elect did not avail themselves to anything, their sins being propitiated was a matter between the Father and the son, Christ availed Himself to the Father on their behalf !
I did not say that you deceiver and dishonest person ! I said His death was proportioned in the exactness of satisfying God's Law and Justice for each of the sins of those He died for ! Now read post 119 and show us where I made a remark about Christ's Death being finite ! If you are going to slander and misrepresent what I say, I will ignore you.
He was, The whole world He died for. You must do not know what propitiation means ! So your bible says many things that you do not understand !
The Elect did not avail themselves to anything, their sins being propitiated was a matter between the Father and the son, Christ availed Himself to the Father on their behalf !
I did not say that you deceiver and dishonest person ! I said His death was proportioned in the exactness of satisfying God's Law and Justice for each of the sins of those He died for ! Now read post 119 and show us where I made a remark about Christ's Death being finite ! If you are going to slander and misrepresent what I say, I will ignore you.
the elct prove and confirm their Election from God BY placing faith in Christ!
:thumbsup:
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fallshort of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus ; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed.
God Grace from the Cross saves us, but for us to have that effectually applied towards us, God requires us to place in jesus!
savedbymercy
New Member
They are given Faith to believe ! So whats your point ? That does not mean Christ died for all the world, that God is propitiated for all the world without exception, or that Christ was punished beyond the sins of the Elect !
savedbymercy
New Member
It accomplished propitiation !
One of the sure ways to detect an antichrist, is to ask them what they believe the Death of Christ accomplished . They will for the most part say that His Death provided a possibility for everyone in the world to be saved, they do not say it made Salvation sure or that it[His Death] in and of itself saved anyone. Most of these deceivers will go to 1 Jn 2:2 to prove their point ! By it they say Jesus Christ died for everyone in the world, and propitiated God for everyone in the world without exception. Once a Person goes there, I know without question that they do not understand what propitiation is to God !
In 1 Jn 2:2 its the word Hilasmos and means:
an appeasing, propitiating
the means of appeasing, a propitiation
The english word appease means:
to bring to a state of peace, quiet, ease, calm, or contentment; pacify; soothe: to appease an angry king.
Basically propitiation means to appease God's Wrath, to make satisfaction, to be propitious or merciful which denotes acceptance and favor.
It [propitiation] is the first cousin to reconciliation !
The Lord Jesus Christ upon the Cross appeased or satisfied God's Justice that His Law demanded for everyone He died in the stead of. God's Holy law against their transgressions demanded Death, and Christ was the representative and was subrogated in their place. The Lord Jesus Christ met the Just demands of the law that was against them, and it was He instead of them that God's Justice and Righteousness put to Death. God's Justice was satisfied and His Law was Honored and Magnified, and everyone this was done for, God gives them Faith so they can know it and praise His Grace and mercy for it.
John writes that He is our Propitiation 1 Jn 2:2
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
In the greek it is present tense, that is He is presently being our satisfaction for our sins, and not at that time just to the jewish believers John wrote to, but to believers all over the world, and for all time !
Folks, simply put, God cannot, without being unjust, punish anyone Christ died for, not for anything ! His Justice cannot do it.
So for those of you who use this scripture to teach that Christ died for everyone in the world without exception, that Propitiated God on their behalf, and know at the same time people shall die in their sins Jn 8:24
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
We know all will not believe because Jn 10:26
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Now according to Jn 8:24 they shall die in their sins !
So if they die in their sins, and yet Christ is their propitiation, then God is punishing them again for their sins Christ died for 1 Cor 15:3, which makes God unjust and Christ has been betrayed, because He suffered death already for the sins that they are again to be punished for eternally !
One of the sure ways to detect an antichrist, is to ask them what they believe the Death of Christ accomplished . They will for the most part say that His Death provided a possibility for everyone in the world to be saved, they do not say it made Salvation sure or that it[His Death] in and of itself saved anyone. Most of these deceivers will go to 1 Jn 2:2 to prove their point ! By it they say Jesus Christ died for everyone in the world, and propitiated God for everyone in the world without exception. Once a Person goes there, I know without question that they do not understand what propitiation is to God !
In 1 Jn 2:2 its the word Hilasmos and means:
an appeasing, propitiating
the means of appeasing, a propitiation
The english word appease means:
to bring to a state of peace, quiet, ease, calm, or contentment; pacify; soothe: to appease an angry king.
Basically propitiation means to appease God's Wrath, to make satisfaction, to be propitious or merciful which denotes acceptance and favor.
It [propitiation] is the first cousin to reconciliation !
The Lord Jesus Christ upon the Cross appeased or satisfied God's Justice that His Law demanded for everyone He died in the stead of. God's Holy law against their transgressions demanded Death, and Christ was the representative and was subrogated in their place. The Lord Jesus Christ met the Just demands of the law that was against them, and it was He instead of them that God's Justice and Righteousness put to Death. God's Justice was satisfied and His Law was Honored and Magnified, and everyone this was done for, God gives them Faith so they can know it and praise His Grace and mercy for it.
John writes that He is our Propitiation 1 Jn 2:2
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
In the greek it is present tense, that is He is presently being our satisfaction for our sins, and not at that time just to the jewish believers John wrote to, but to believers all over the world, and for all time !
Folks, simply put, God cannot, without being unjust, punish anyone Christ died for, not for anything ! His Justice cannot do it.
So for those of you who use this scripture to teach that Christ died for everyone in the world without exception, that Propitiated God on their behalf, and know at the same time people shall die in their sins Jn 8:24
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
We know all will not believe because Jn 10:26
26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Now according to Jn 8:24 they shall die in their sins !
So if they die in their sins, and yet Christ is their propitiation, then God is punishing them again for their sins Christ died for 1 Cor 15:3, which makes God unjust and Christ has been betrayed, because He suffered death already for the sins that they are again to be punished for eternally !
Exactly. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. It in this is love, not that we have loved God, but that He loved us and sent Christ to be the propitiation for our sins. The just are justified in Christ, whom He put forward as a propitiation by His blood, to be received by faith. So whoever believes in the Son has everlasting life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
watch out, as you and I just "might' be labeled as being one in spirit of antichrist by holding to that!
savedbymercy
New Member
jonc
Not everyone without exception. If that was so, God would have no need to punish anyone for sin, for His Law and Justice would have been completely satisfied for everyone. The Problem with that howver is that Jesus will say to many Matt 7:23
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
And Jesus speaks of some dying in their sins Jn 8:24
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Now that's impossible for anyone He died for and propitiated God for !
Not everyone without exception. If that was so, God would have no need to punish anyone for sin, for His Law and Justice would have been completely satisfied for everyone. The Problem with that howver is that Jesus will say to many Matt 7:23
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
And Jesus speaks of some dying in their sins Jn 8:24
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Now that's impossible for anyone He died for and propitiated God for !
jonc
Not everyone without exception. If that was so, God would have no need to punish anyone for sin, for His Law and Justice would have been completely satisfied for everyone. The Problem with that howver is that Jesus will say to many Matt 7:23
QUOTE]
I didn't say anyone at all with or without exception. I didn't force an interpretation, but merely presented a passage of Scripture that stated that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of whole world.
Interpret the verse as you wish.
"It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong." - Chesterton
savedbymercy
New Member
jonc
Doesnt matter, I am saying it !
He did, and that whole world has not one sin to be punished for, not ever !
Doesnt matter, I am saying it !
He did, and that whole world has not one sin to be punished for, not ever !
I have already told you that I am not going to engage in your quarrels.
You know that I object to your method of interpretation and believe that you take too many liberties with the biblical text.
Neither I, nor 1 John 2:2, said anything about “anyone at all with or without exception.”
You are correct: It doesn't matter, you are saying it.
what would 'propitiation" for the entire world, NOT just for our sins?
know that 5 pointers would hold to jesus death JUST being such for the elect, but I tend to see it in the Bible as provoding means to pay for ALL, but ONLY those able to come to Christ in faith will actually have their sins atoned for, and those are the Elect!
savedbymercy
New Member
jonc
You object to the Truth in the guise of it being my interpretation !
You object to the Truth in the guise of it being my interpretation !
I object to your interpretation being presented as Scripture.
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1 John 2:2 can be interpreted as Christ propitiating for the sins of all man, or for the sins of only the elect. But the verse itself does not present either – it presents Christ as the propitiation for not only our sins, but the sins of the world. “Sins” is never the subject of “propitiation,” and I see this verse as simply saying exactly what it states. A similar verse says “behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world,” not “behold, the Lamb of God is taking away the sins of the world.”
I agree with savedbymercy that only those who are saved actually have a mediator in Christ – all others remain under God’s wrath. And I agree with you that only those who come to Christ will find atonement for their sins. To separate atonement from the complete picture of salvation is hypothetical because apart from the resurrection our faith is useless and we are still in our sins (although I would grant that this faith is a work of God).
My objection is that we shouldn’t interpret a passage based on our theological understanding or presuppositions regardless to the correctness of our understanding. There is no need to alter 1 Jn 2:2.