Actual Atonement vs Potential Atonement

[DaChaser1]

1 John 2:2 can be interpreted as Christ propitiating for the sins of all man, or for the sins of only the elect. But the verse itself does not present either – it presents Christ as the propitiation for not only our sins, but the sins of the world. “Sins” is never the subject of “propitiation,” and I see this verse as simply saying exactly what it states. A similar verse says “behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world,” not “behold, the Lamb of God is taking away the sins of the world.”

I agree with savedbymercy that only those who are saved actually have a mediator in Christ – all others remain under God’s wrath. And I agree with you that only those who come to Christ will find atonement for their sins. To separate atonement from the complete picture of salvation is hypothetical because apart from the resurrection our faith is useless and we are still in our sins (although I would grant that this faith is a work of God).

My objection is that we shouldn’t interpret a passage based on our theological understanding or presuppositions regardless to the correctness of our understanding. There is no need to alter 1 Jn 2:2.

We ALL agree thatjesus is the mediator between us and God, that His death ONLY effectually paid the sin debt of those who were the elect, big difference is that you and i see that reconcilliation done at rebirth, the moment we received jesus by act of faith, while he sees it happening before evn was born!

 

[JonC]

Another difference is that savedbymercy is presenting 1 Jn 2:2 as Christ propitiating on the behalf of the sins of the elect rather than allowing the verse to stand as written. I cannot discuss differences in interpretation or theology with someone who insists that the biblical authors meant to write what he believes they should have written and therefore his interpretation is actually what scripture says. Never mind doctrine, he does not even present a rational method of interpretation.

 

[savedbymercy]

jn c

Another difference is that savedbymercy is presenting 1 Jn 2:2 as Christ propitiating on the behalf of the sins of the elect

Thats it. The whole World means the Elect of the Whole World ! Who else has their sins forgiven and are Justified . You obviously do not know what propitiation means. Its ludacris to say Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world without exception and millions upon millions die in their sins !

 

[JonC]

savedbymercy,

savedbymercy is presenting 1 Jn 2:2 as Christ propitiating on the behalf of the sins of the elect

Thats it.

I thought that you would like that wording of Scripture better. I was not confused regarding what you were saying. Of course, it is not actually what the Biblical text says, but rather a rewording of the passage to reflect your interpretation. Personally, I’ll take Scripture over your “edited” version.

It is you, my friend, who cannot possible comprehend the meaning of propitiation. That is why you find that you have to interpret this verse, by necessity, with the elect as the subject rather than Christ. It is probably why you find 1 Jn 2:2 so ludicrous as written in Scripture, and have to “fit” it in to your theology by rewording the passage to make sin, particularly the sins of the elect, its subject. I would imagine that you would have similar difficulty with any particular text that deals with Christ apart from explicitly applying application to the elect. Through your lens God - apart from the elect - appears to be no God at all.

But no, I can assure you that I have absolutely no deficiency understanding the meaning of propitiation. The definition of propitiation has not changed from the Old Testament into the New. It is the same – and never has sin been its subject. It is your utter lack of respect for the Word of God as recorded, as the Holy Spirit guided the writers to put down on paper, that is offensive – not your beliefs (even though we do differ on many aspects).

 

[JonC]

Its ludacris [sic] to say Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world without exception

Your argument here is with 1 Jn 2:2, not me.


This is closer to our argument.


There is a medicine that cures a disease, not only for us to who have taken it, but for everyone. You see this as saying that “everyone” means those those to whom it will be administered, because those who will not take the medicine obviously will not be cured. But the clause is descriptive of the cure, not who will take it.

You can take the verse literally without implying universal atonement because sin is never the subject of propitiation. You’ve defined propitiation as forgiveness and justification to the elect – but this is not its definition.

 

[billwald]

>Thats it. The whole World means the Elect of the Whole World

In other words, the plain text of our "inerrant" Bible can't be taken at face value and requires a human interpreter.

 

[savedbymercy]

jon

Your argument here is with 1 Jn 2:2, not me.

I have no argument with 1 Jn 2:2 but with its perversion by others.

There is a medicine that cures a disease, not only for us to who have taken it, but for everyone. You see this as saying that “everyone” means those those to whom it will be administered, because those who will not take the medicine obviously will not be cured. But the clause is descriptive of the cure, not who will take it.

Thats bogus, Christ's Death did the Healing, it was the medicine.

1 Pet 2:24

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

The whole world that had their sins proptiated has no sin between them and God.

 

[savedbymercy]

jon

There is a medicine that cures a disease, not only for us to who have taken it, but for everyone. You see this as saying that “everyone” means those those to whom it will be administered, because those who will not take the medicine obviously will not be cured. But the clause is descriptive of the cure, not who will take it.

As you can see, jon c gives the glory of salvation to the one who takes the medicine, that would be the sinner. So it was the act of the patient that closed the deal. He has reason to boast.

So he sales the work of Christ short as doing the complete healing, application and all..

You can take the verse literally without implying universal atonement because sin is never the subject of propitiation.

God is propitiated by the Death of Christ for the sins of those Christ died for. Thats a pretty simple no brainer. All that double talking gets no where, you just do not know what propitiation means.

 

[savedbymercy]

da ch says:

We ALL agree thatjesus is the mediator between us and God

1 Tim 2:5 Mediator !



1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

When scripture presents Christ as Mediator, He is only the One Mediator, and He is the Mediator, and Testator of the New or Everlasting or Better Covenant of Grace Heb 8:6

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 12:24

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 9:15-17

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Now since Christ is the Lamb slain from or before the foundation of the world, His Mediatorship covers all of Time, redeeming all of God's Elect from the curse of the Law and bringing them to God. This includes the OT Saints, and since the Blood of Christ that redeems both Testament Saints is also called the Blood that purchased the Church of God Acts 20:28, then the Saints of Both Testaments comprise the Church of God.

They all are as Isa writes Isa 43:21

21This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

These only or alone can be the men that Christ is the Mediator unto in 1 Tim 2:5, its His Church, His Israel of God ! The Sheep of the Covenant !

Heb 13:20

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

 

[JonC]

I have no argument with 1 Jn 2:2 but with its perversion by others.

We are dealing with the text. Are you stating that it was erroneously recorded in Scripture, that perversion crept in but that it originally stated your interpretation as the text?

Thats bogus, Christ's Death did the Healing, it was the medicine.

Not bogus, although no illustration is without flaw (just like no interpretation, even yours, can take the place of scripture). How it is that you can relate the cure to the medicine in this less than adequate illustration, but you fail to make the connection between Christ as the propitiation in 1 Jn 2:2 is beyond me. But you have stated my position – the passage is stating that Christ is the propitiation, the One who propitiates – that is appeases the wrath of God. The subject is not “our sins” or “the sins of the world” and there is no need to add to this passage to make it supportive of your position because it is not contradictory to your position.

1 Pet 2:24

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Yes, we are saved through Christ – by His stripes we are healed. Your point?

The whole world that had their sins proptiated has no sin between them and God.

No! Sins are not propitiated! You do not appease sins and God is never appeased by sin. Christ is the propitiation for our sins and the sins of the whole world - no need to add to this in order to make atonement specific to the sins of the elect.

 

[JonC]

>Thats it. The whole World means the Elect of the Whole World

In other words, the plain text of our "inerrant" Bible can't be taken at face value and requires a human interpreter.

Thank goodness there are people like some on this board that can point out these biblical errors and tell us what the authors really wanted to say.

 

[savedbymercy]

jonc

We are dealing with the text

You have not delt with it, if anything you have denied and perverted it. You have people God has been propitiated for, for their sins, because Christ has satisified His Law and Justice for them against their sins against His Law, You have many of them going to Hell to be punished for their sins again..

 

[savedbymercy]

jon c

Yes, we are saved through Christ – by His stripes we are healed. Your point?

My Point is that they are saved or healed by His Stripes, not by anything they did.

Taking medicine is something man does for his healing to work ! You do not have enough sense to know the difference ?

 

[JonC]

jonc



You have not delt with it, if anything you have denied and perverted it. You have people God has been propitiated for, for their sins, because Christ has satisified His Law and Justice for them against their sins against His Law, You have many of them going to Hell to be punished for their sins again..

Savedbymercy,

I have stated the scripture – you have felt the need to alter it. You have denied the text as presented, even stated “that’s it” when I tried to show you how you were changing it. I was trying to show you what you were doing, but instead you accepted the altered text as correct.

No one for whom Christ has died to redeem will go to hell – that is foolishness. Christ came to redeem those who will believe – the elect of God. The point is that you do not have to change the passage in 1 Jn to say this because it is describing Christ, not those for whom He died.

 

[JonC]

jon c



My Point is that they are saved or healed by His Stripes, not by anything they did.

Off topic. No one says that men are saved by anything they did.

YOU said that in the illustration Christ was the medicine (which would be my point). I pointed out that these types of illustrations are flawed. The point was not salvation by works, the issue was the definition of propitiation and whether or not 1 Jn 2:2 could be understood as stated or needed additions. I do accept the scripture as stated (and do not see it as infringing on limited atonement) while you can’t accept it without putting your spin on the text.

 

[savedbymercy]

jonc

No one says that men are saved by anything they did.

You said the reason why many remain sick is because they do not take the medicine provided by the Doctor. Right here in this Illustration of yours

There is a medicine that cures a disease, not only for us to who have taken it, but for everyone. You see this as saying that “everyone” means those those to whom it will be administered, because those who will not take the medicine obviously will not be cured. But the clause is descriptive of the cure, not who will take it.

Now is not taking the medicine something the one who needs to be cured does ?

Now you see why I say this mess was bogus !

 

[JonC]

jonc



You said the reason why many remain sick is because they do not take the medicine provided by the Doctor. Right here in this Illustration of yours



Now is not taking the medicine something the one who needs to be cured does ?

Now you see why I say this mess was bogus !

You are getting silly as I told you it was an illustration regarding propitiation – but I have a little time…so…. No, taking medicine is not something that someone does to be cured if that person is not able to take that medicine and another has to both provide and administer the medicine. You are assuming that the sick are capable of administering or even desiring this medicine on their own accord.

 

[DaChaser1]

We are dealing with the text. Are you stating that it was erroneously recorded in Scripture, that perversion crept in but that it originally stated your interpretation as the text?


Not bogus, although no illustration is without flaw (just like no interpretation, even yours, can take the place of scripture). How it is that you can relate the cure to the medicine in this less than adequate illustration, but you fail to make the connection between Christ as the propitiation in 1 Jn 2:2 is beyond me. But you have stated my position – the passage is stating that Christ is the propitiation, the One who propitiates – that is appeases the wrath of God. The subject is not “our sins” or “the sins of the world” and there is no need to add to this passage to make it supportive of your position because it is not contradictory to your position.


Yes, we are saved through Christ – by His stripes we are healed. Your point?


No! Sins are not propitiated! You do not appease sins and God is never appeased by sin. Christ is the propitiation for our sins and the sins of the whole world - no need to add to this in order to make atonement specific to the sins of the elect.

Jesus Himself is the One who died to God the Father on the Cross, that he was the sin bearer/mercy seat before holy God, and that sinners are reconciled to God by the Cross ONLY once received those provisions made for sins when receiving Christ by FAITH!

 

[savedbymercy]

jonc

You are getting silly as I told you it was an illustration regarding propitiation

I know what it was, and you give man the glory for healing. I give God the Glory for the Healing or Salvation of a Soul through Christ, but you give it to man. If you gave it to God then you would know that everyone God has been propitiated for, for their sins by Chtist, then you would know they are saved.

Your God and Christ dishonoring beliefs, has people Christ died for, God being propitiated for, going to hell for their sins, now say it is not so !

 

[savedbymercy]

Jesus Himself is the One who died to God the Father on the Cross, that he was the sin bearer/mercy seat before holy God, and that sinners are reconciled to God by the Cross ONLY once received those provisions made for sins when receiving Christ by FAITH!

Another false statement. Sinners are reconciled to God while they are enemies, unregenerated and in unbelief. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.