His death is the means by which is allowed to reconcile us back, that has merit in the act to reconcile us back, but cannot happen UNTIL received jesus by faith!
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Actual Atonement vs Potential Atonement
- Thread starter Earth Wind and Fire
- Start date
His death is the means by which is allowed to reconcile us back, that has merit in the act to reconcile us back, but cannot happen UNTIL received jesus by faith!
savedbymercy
New Member
dac
Thats a Lie against the Truth. Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death, while they are enemies, unbelievers ! Rom 5:10
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
You are against the Truth, not for it !
Thats a Lie against the Truth. Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death, while they are enemies, unbelievers ! Rom 5:10
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
You are against the Truth, not for it !
I know that you probably do not believe a word of what you say, primarily because of your inconsistence and the fact that you just stated something that I never said. Or, you may be the fool I didn’t take you to be – I don’t know.
Don’t get upset about the medicine illustration – it was just an illustration. You cannot argue other doctrines or theologies against an illustration. It was made up. It was not about a real medicine, or a real cure, or a real disease. Look kid, it was an illustration about grammar. I wasn’t arguing theology, but pointing out the fact that you are grammatically incorrect concerning your presentation of 1 Jn 2:2. It was not an instance of “healing” – it was an illustration.
I have never attributed salvation to the works of man. Everyone that God has been propitiated for are saved. Again, those not saved are under condemnation. How plain can I state for you to understand.
I do not know that anonymity negates condemnation, for your sake I hope so (but I don’t think so).
Don’t get upset about the medicine illustration – it was just an illustration. You cannot argue other doctrines or theologies against an illustration. It was made up. It was not about a real medicine, or a real cure, or a real disease. Look kid, it was an illustration about grammar. I wasn’t arguing theology, but pointing out the fact that you are grammatically incorrect concerning your presentation of 1 Jn 2:2. It was not an instance of “healing” – it was an illustration.
I have never attributed salvation to the works of man. Everyone that God has been propitiated for are saved. Again, those not saved are under condemnation. How plain can I state for you to understand.
I do not know that anonymity negates condemnation, for your sake I hope so (but I don’t think so).
IF a person has not placed their faith, gift of God so not a work, unto jesus work/person, does the Cross Still reconcile them?
I say NOT!
:thumbsup: I absolutely agree with you in that they are not reconciled to God through Christ. I do see the condemnation of those who do not believe as Christ centered as well, but those who do not believe are not redeemed.
In the words of Christ, to be saved one must “repent and believe.” These are acts of faith, works of God and not man. Man's desire is tainted, and he cannot - without God - save himself. Faith is a gift of God and not a work (Paul even contrasts faith with works to prove the point). But Christ came that all who would believe would be saved.
Of course, since I said one must believe in Christ to be saved, I do expect a “liar..liar,” but that’s OK. A servant is not above his Master.
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savedbymercy holds an unorthodox position, you are not going to successfully persuade him to even acknowledge the legitimacy of your argument because you are arguing from a traditional Christian understanding - which he has rejected as error. The two of you are not going to find common ground on which to debate, much less actually agree.
Thats OK brother....DC is learning some valuable lessons & gaining practical experience in the process.:thumbsup:
just curious, as to when a person passes the "pale oforthodoxy' far enough as regarding christian truth to actually being heritical now?
Heresy is defined by orthodox doctrine. Roman Catholic’s would probably see much of Protestantism as heretical, but as a Baptist I believe in the free church – no external human authority over the church.
I would define heresy as an extreme departure from orthodox or accepted Christian doctrine. I think that what has been presented on this post is on the line, it is unorthodox and maybe heretical. (But some view heresy as something so fundamentally against orthodoxy that it impedes salvation, I don’t think that anything said here approaches that criteria).
But it is subjective, especially in our postmodern world where everyone can be right in their own "truth."
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The elect were purposed unto salvation (2 Thes. 2:13) through elected means and application. There is no atonement that stands isolated from other aspects of God's salvation of the elect and made to stand by itself. Hence, the question of potential versus actual is oxymoronic.
God's purpose of election saves no one but is "to" salvation (2 Thes. 2:13) which is THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth. Hence, God's purpose of election ACTUALLY saves N
NE because His purpose cannot be isolated from its actual provision and actual application. When you isolate it and make it to stand alone you repudiate it completely and make it oxymornic as His Purpose has NO REALITY from its provision and application. Hence, you cannot separate, isolate any of these aspects from the others without repudiating it completely.The actual provision of Christ's life and death cannot be isolated and made to stand alone. Apart from God's purpose it has no application to anyone. Apart from its application it has no PURPOSE or PROVISION for anyone.
He purposed to save the elect. He provided to save the elect, but until He actually saves the elect His purpose is unfulfilled and they are unredeemed.
The elect were purposed unto salvation (2 Thes. 2:13) through elected means and application. There is no atonement that stands isolated from other aspects of God's salvation of the elect and made to stand by itself. Hence, the question of potential versus actual is oxymoronic.
God's purpose of election saves no one but is "to" salvation (2 Thes. 2:13) which is THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth. Hence, God's purpose of election ACTUALLY saves N
The actual provision of Christ's life and death cannot be isolated and made to stand alone. Apart from God's purpose it has no application to anyone. Apart from its application it has no PURPOSE or PROVISION for anyone.
He purposed to save the elect. He provided to save the elect, but until He actually saves the elect His purpose is unfulfilled and they are unredeemed.
so would you agree with us that while jesus death provided the means by which God can freely reddem out a people for Himself, that it still requires the person to inherit that to actually place faith in christ to be saved by his act on Calvary for their benefit!
I believe that the life and death of Christ was purposed for His elect and provides the basis for the application of salvation to the elect. The salvation application is regeneration/conversion/progressive sanctification and ultimate glorification. They are eternal saved by purpose. They are provisionally redeemed by Christ. They are actually saved by the work of the Holy Spirit. None of these (purpose/provision/actual) can be isolated from each other and made to stand alone. God's purpose saved no one. Christ's provision saved no one. Salvation is God purposely applying the Christ redemption to His elect.
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yes, the atonement of Jesus provided means/grounds to save us, but still requires the lord to effectual apply that toqwards those whom he has chosen to save in cjhrist, they are ones enabled by him to place faith in jesus and secure ther purchased salvation!
Agreed!:thumbs:
savedbymercy
New Member
False Gospel ! Faith is part of the Gift of Salvation, in fact, only the saved, regenerated man can have Faith. The Old Man is still in unbelief until the day of redemption !
Eph 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
What trash can did you find this statement ? Its no where in the scriptures. Christ has purchased and secured and applies all The Salvation for those He died for.
Absolutely every one Christ died for, by His Obedience Alone, the Obedience of One, they are declared Righteous and complete in Him forever !
Rom 5:19
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
what shall we do to be saved/justified/reconciled back to God?
per Apostle paul, inspired by HS, believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, confess with your month that He is Lord, and you shall be saved!
paul taught we HAD to receive jesus by faith to get saved, how about you?
savedbymercy
New Member
dac
lol, Christ did and does that for His Sheep, He brings them back to God. 1 Pet 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh[His Death], but quickened by the Spirit[His Resurrection]:
Those Christ died for, and rose again, by His Resurrection they are begotten again unto a Lively hope. Don't take my word for it but here is scripture for you to deny 1 Pet 1:3
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Now that word begotten is anagennaō and means:
1) to produce again, be born again, born anew
2) metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God
Now do you understand what is being said here ? According to this extremely important verse, how does one receive a change of mind so that they live a new life unto God ?
lol, Christ did and does that for His Sheep, He brings them back to God. 1 Pet 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh[His Death], but quickened by the Spirit[His Resurrection]:
Those Christ died for, and rose again, by His Resurrection they are begotten again unto a Lively hope. Don't take my word for it but here is scripture for you to deny 1 Pet 1:3
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Now that word begotten is anagennaō and means:
1) to produce again, be born again, born anew
2) metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God
Now do you understand what is being said here ? According to this extremely important verse, how does one receive a change of mind so that they live a new life unto God ?
God applies effectually the work of Chrsit on behalf of the elct towards us in order to save us ONCE we receive jesus by faith!