Adam versus believers

[Agent47]

And we have to be careful not to fall into the trap of making the Bible not say what it so clearly says in order to make it comply with our faulty understanding of what a logical fallacy is.

I agree. We need to adhere to God's Word, not assume things based on our own understanding (we cannot assume Adam would have lived forever had he not eaten of the fruit as this is philosophical and hypothetical....it ADDS to Scripture).

When we do start reasoning out things we have to be logical in our reasoning. God is not a God of chaos but of order.

The addition to Scripture that Adam would have lived forever had he not eaten of the fruit us a formal logical fallacy. It is denying the antecedent (fallacy of the inverse or inverse error).

If P, then Q.
Therefore, if not P, then not Q.

It is faulty reasoning, but worse than that in this case it actually adds to God's Word what is not there.

I hold a high view of Scripture (of the biblical text). So I do believe we have to handle Scripture with respect, as our singular authority for doctrine, as objective, and as complete. This includes making sure to identify errors and fallacies in our understanding.

Would Adam have lived forever? We cannot say (it is a philosophical, hypothetical question). My caution to those who would add to Scripture is that he would have is twofold - first, your reasoning is flawed and presents God as a God of chaos as you move into vain philosophy. And second, you are adding to scripture.

I seriously doubt anyone would question that @Martin Marprelate is correct.

We agree (I think) that we are to avoid vain philosophy and hypotheticals to adhere to the Word of God. And we agree (I hope) that God is not a foolish God prone to illogical discourse and chaos.

With Adam, it is wrong (it is adding to Scripture) to say that Adam would have lived forever had he not eaten of the fruit. It is also a formal logical fallacy.

To simply the fallacy for those who may not grasp the fact - If I say you and your family will die if you jump into shark infested waters with those T-bone steaks tied around your neck this does not mean I am saying that you will live if you remove the steaks and jump into the water. It is not saying that you will live if you stay in the boat either. It is saying that on the day you jump into the water with those steaks tied around your neck you will surely die.

We cannot play the fool to accept doctrines. We cannot pretend God is foolish and illogical. These questions - "Can God make a round square", "Would Adam have lived forever had he not taken the fruit", "Could Christ have sinned and if not did he have free-will" are all philosophical questions. What makes the one about Adam much worse is people often answer foolishly by denying the antecedent.

The fact is we do not know what would have happened if Adam did not eat of the fruit except that Adam would have acted in such a way as to make void God's plan. Perhaps he would have lived forever. Or perhaps he would have disobeyed in some other way. We do not know and it is wrong (it is a sin) to add to Scripture.

My question is in no way hypothetical so all these cautions are unnecessary and in my opinion, a needless distraction from the subject.

Scriptures are clear Adam died as a result of sinning. I am examining that truth as revealed in scriptures in greater detail without no speculation whatsoever

 

[Agent47]

It is my understanding, no. Genesis 3:22.

So God created a spiritually dead creature in His image?

 

[Agent47]

I never denied that there was one point in time when the reality of spiritual death entered the whole human race.

What did we have BEFORE that point in time seeing we never had eternal life?

Would you say Adam was spiritually dead before he sinned?

 

[percho]

spiritually, dead, alive

Is the Hebrew and or Greek for those words used relative to one another anywhere in scripture?

 

[JonC]

What did we have BEFORE that point in time seeing we never had eternal life?

Would you say Adam was spiritually dead before he sinned?

No. I wouldn't say he was spiritually dead prior to his transgression.

Before Adam sinned he was in fellowship with God and "upright". This is how people have defined "spiritual life". It is relational.

But I also believe Adam did not have a spiritual life of his own (ontological). God is and always has been the Life, not Adam.

So I would say that before Adam sinned he was flesh and without sin, in communion with God. After Adam sinned he remained flesh, his eyes were opened, physical death became certain, and he was no longer in communion with God but a slave to sin and death.

 

[Agent47]

No. I wouldn't say he was spiritually dead prior to his transgression.

Before Adam sinned he was in fellowship with God and "upright". This is how people have defined "spiritual life". It is relational.

But I also believe Adam did not have a spiritual life of his own (ontological). God is and always has been the Life, not Adam.

So I would say that before Adam sinned he was flesh and without sin, in communion with God. After Adam sinned he remained flesh, his eyes were opened, physical death became certain, and he was no longer in communion with God but a slave to sin and death.

This is the most confusing response I have seen. Maybe it’s me.

Let’s not talk about how “people have defined” and let’s talk about YOU.
“Spiritual life” is relational you say. Is this a belief you hold?

How was the relational “spiritual life” Adam had different from what a believer has?

saying God is life is not different from saying God is Love. It’s a philosophical or metaphorical statement meaning God is the origin of life and full of love respectively. The statement is unhelpful in this context.

 

[Dave G]

In as many words sin caused spiritual death but a spiritually alive believer can't be kill d by sin?

What does this say?

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." ( John 5:24 ).

 

[JonC]

This is the most confusing response I have seen. Maybe it’s me.

Let’s not talk about how “people have defined” and let’s talk about YOU.
“Spiritual life” is relational you say. Is this a belief you hold?

How was the relational “spiritual life” Adam had different from what a believer has?

saying God is life is not different from saying God is Love. It’s a philosophical or metaphorical statement meaning God is the origin of life and full of love respectively. The statement is unhelpful in this context.

Define "spiritual life".

That is the biggest problem here. People use extra-biblical terms as if they were in the Bible because they sound "spiritual". But they often do not define these terms.

If you are able to define "spiritual life" then I can give you a clear answer.

 

[Van]

Can you cogently distinguish Adam's "spiritually alive" from a believer's "spiritually alive" states?

Apart from.those two "spiritually alive" states, do you know of any other state?

Sorry Sir, but I thought I already distinguished between Adam's relationship with God, not under the New Covenant, and a redeemed individual"s "eternal life" relationship. Remember when Adam was created with a relationship with God, the Lamb of God had already been chosen to restore the fallen to a relationship of eternal life. Thus God at least "anticipated" Adam's relationship would not be eternal, before Adam was created.

 

[Dave G]

Would you say Adam was spiritually dead before he sinned?

Romans 1:18-32.
Romans 5:12.
Romans 5:19.
Ephesians 2:1-3.
Ephesians 4:17-19.

Would you say that people were spiritually alive before God caused them to be born again, or spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins?
To you, what is it to be spiritually dead, or "dead in trespasses and sins"?

Finally,
what Scriptures do you see as describing what being "born again" actually means?

 

[37818]

So God created a spiritually dead creature in His image?

Not at all. There is an order of events. It does seem that you have a problem understanding this.

God created Adam and Eve His image and good, Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 1:31.

Genesis 3:22 is result of Adam and Eve disobeying, Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:2-3.

 

[Agent47]

Define "spiritual life".

That is the biggest problem here. People use extra-biblical terms as if they were in the Bible because they sound "spiritual". But they often do not define these terms.

If you are able to define "spiritual life" then I can give you a clear answer.

I will work with whatever definition you subscribe to. I assure you whatever you believe eternal life to be it has zero bearing on the questions raised. As such, quibbling about definition of terms is nothing but derailing the post.

With that out of the way, please respond to the question.

 

[Agent47]

Not at all. There is an order of events. It does seem that you have a problem understanding this.

God created Adam and Eve His image and good, Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 1:31.

Genesis 3:22 is result of Adam and Eve disobeying, Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:2-3.

Adam was not spiritually dead before the fall but nor was he spiritually alive?

What are you saying?

 

[Agent47]

Romans 1:18-32.
Romans 5:12.
Romans 5:19.
Ephesians 2:1-3.
Ephesians 4:17-19.

Would you say that people were spiritually alive before God caused them to be born again, or spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins?
To you, what is it to be spiritually dead, or "dead in trespasses and sins"?

Finally,
what Scriptures do you see as describing what being "born again" actually means?

explain how these verses support your beliefs right after sharing them on the subject

 

[Agent47]

Sorry Sir, but I thought I already distinguished between Adam's relationship with God, not under the New Covenant, and a redeemed individual"s "eternal life" relationship. Remember when Adam was created with a relationship with God, the Lamb of God had already been chosen to restore the fallen to a relationship of eternal life. Thus God at least "anticipated" Adam's relationship would not be eternal, before Adam was created.

Does the death and resurrection of Jesus restore man to pre-Adamic state,or does it go beyond that and add something else?

 

[JonC]

I will work with whatever definition you subscribe to. I assure you whatever you believe eternal life to be it has zero bearing on the questions raised. As such, quibbling about definition of terms is nothing but derailing the post.

With that out of the way, please respond to the question.

The only thing close to "spiritual life" that I can find in the Bible is Chriat as the "Life", "Christ in is", "sealed by the Spirit", Christ as "a life giving spirit" and bring "born of the Spirit".

So using the definition of Spiritual life as "in Christ" and "sealed by the Spirit" I have to say these are not descriptive of pre-Fall Adam.

 

[37818]

Adam was not spiritually dead before the fall but nor was he spiritually alive?

What are you saying?

Before the fall, Adam and Eve were good sinless people. They also did not have God's knowledge of good and evil. God being infinitely good. Adam and Eve were only finite beings.

 

[Dave G]

explain how these verses support your beliefs right after sharing them on the subject

Read them carefully and tell me how they don't.
I figure the words should do all the speaking that is necessary.

If you disagree, then I understand.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 10 am EST / 7 am PST

 

[Van]

Does the death and resurrection of Jesus restore man to pre-Adamic state,or does it go beyond that and add something else?

Hi Agent47, here is what I believe scripture teaches, the death of Christ and His resurrection did NOT restore humankind in general or any individual to the pre-Adamic state of being un-separated from God. However, His sacrifice did provide the means by which individuals can be restored to the pre-Adamic state of being un=separated from God. Only when God transfers a person from the realm of darkness (separated from God) to the kingdom of His Beloved Son (together with Christ) is a person made alive (eternally per the New Covenant). As I said before, Adam did not have the promise of God for eternal life, that is an added feature of the New Covenant. You can find dozens of references to life eternal or eternal life in the New Testament, including John 3:16.