But everyone else is fair game;huh?
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Adam's Fall = Total Depravity? ; Hardened = Non-Elect?
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
But everyone else is fair game;huh?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Awww, I hadn't seen this response when I wrote my last reply, but this is a great example of what I was just explaining. You clearly have NO idea what I believe...or apparently what most Calvinists believe. You might want to go back and read that again, because I know Calvinists believe the Gospel is for all people...you obviously missed the point. Let me help by asking you a question.
Do you believe Jesus wanted everyone to understand and believe the gospel while He was still on earth?
If so, then who would have killed him?
Don't you think that if Jesus wanted to have the "evangelistic success" that Peter had in Act 2 that he could have? Clearly Jesus was hiding the truth in parables, keeping much of his teaching and miracles secret, and provoking the Jews in their rebellion. The JEWS were being HARDENED. Read John 12:39-41 and it tells you exactly why they could NOT believe Jesus:
For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."
and Paul contrast that condition with that of everyone else in the world when he writes:
27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"
You see, the scripture tells us exactly why Israel could not believe Jesus' words and Paul affirms that the rest of the world can..."they will listen."
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Because you don't know how to spell his name.
Again, if your attempt is to help those who are reading along, this type of demeaning banter is not serving your purpose well. Dismissing people's well thought out and reasoned responses as "silly" and "a joke" serves no one and only undermines your integrity in the discussion. Maybe it appears to be a "joke" to you because you don't understand it yet, evidenced by your last response to me regarding the parables.
Read carefully and try to really deal with what I'm saying objectively and I will do the same for you.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Clark said..
in Other words...They are believers
Wesley...said..
In other words...They are believers
Your view from the OP..
I rest my case.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
You need to slow down before you further embarrass yourself. You have yet to properly represent my views (or those of Clarke and Wesley). I'm fine with those being referred to in the Timothy passage as being believers. Clearly some Christians exhibit more faith than others throughout their lives. That is not the point however.
Some believers are vessels chosen for noble purposes (prophets, apostles, etc) and others for more common use. The point is that a believer can change from being a vessel of common use to a vessel of honor. Why do you think that point is relevant with regard to our Romans 9 discussion of vessels being chosen for noble purposes and others for common use? Think about it before you answer. Maybe go back and read my dialogue with Archangel in the "Jacob and Esau = Individual Election?" thread so you can fully understand both sides of the debate.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Romans 9 Paul is showing why God can do as he pleases....
Therefore he uses the potter story for his arugement.
In 2 Tim 2 Paul has another argument all together. It has nothing to do with if God is just or not, rather what the elect is called to do.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I agree. But, you think it pleases him to save some and condemn the rest to certain condemnation, because the text says, "God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."
You make the mistake of thinking that Paul means that all being "shown mercy" = the elect while all being "hardened" = the non-elect reprobates who will certainly be condemned to Hell.
But ask yourself, is that Paul's intent? (be objective, take off your Calvinistic classes and really ask yourself this question honestly)
If it is Paul's intent then why do you suppose Paul goes on to explain in Romans 11 that these same people being "hardened" might be "provoked to envy" and "saved?" (Rm 11:14) and that they might "leave their unbelief" and be "grafted back into the tree" that they were previously cut off from?
And why does Paul conclude this discourse saying, "For God has bound all men over to disobedience (hardened) so that he may have mercy on them all."
If indeed, all men who are being "shown mercy" are the "elect" and all the men being "hardened" are the non-elect, why would Paul say that he has hardened all men ("bound them all over to disobedience") so that he may have mercy on them all? Can you explain that objectively?
Yes, he does use the potter story, but as I'm sure you know, many Calvinists think the analogy of a potter shaping clay pots for noble or common use is proof that the clay vessels are in completely passive and thus play NO role in their being changed. The 2 Tim 2 passage simply provides another perspective of the same analogy.
Calvinists do this with the analogy of being "spiritually dead" taking that to mean "total inability" to willingly believe the message of reconciliation. But, we believe that is taking the analogy further than the author's intent. We believe Paul is intending to show that men are separated from God because of their sins and are thus enemies in need of reconciliation. Like a father might say to a rebellious son, "You are dead to me," so too we are born dead, or at odds, with our creator. This doesn't necessarily imply that we're unable to be reconciled once confronted by the powerful message of the cross however.
Now, how might I point out the intent of the author with regard to this analogy of "death?" I might point out that Paul refers to believers as being "dead to sin." Does this imply believers are unable to be tempted and sinful again? Of course it doesn't. It just means that we are now at odds with sin and we can resist it. We are enemies of sin.
This is the same argument I was making with regard to the potter and the vessels. If I can show that believers, who are vessels of clay, do have a roll to play in being cleansed, so that they can be chosen for noble purposes, then I can show how the intent of Paul may not be to say that the hardened vessels in Romans 9 have no hope of being saved as you suggest. In fact, I've shown just the opposite is true. Those vessels being hardened might be provoked to envy and be saved. (Romans 11:14)
Robert Snow
New Member
He has showen so many errors in Calvinism, it looks like the side of a barn shot with bird shot! :tongue3:
The potter in Romans 9 has been misused by Calvinists. Paul was using a reference to Jeremiah chapter 18. Here God says if a nation sins against him he can pull it down and destroy it, or if a nation repents from their sins he can repent from destroying it. So, God does not unconditionally select some men for mercy and others for wrath.
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
So, God does not unconditionally elect some men for mercy and pass by others to die under his wrath. Men's actions are the conditions upon which God either builds up or destroys nations. The Jews Paul was speaking to knew these scriptures and no way understood them as Calvinists do.
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
So, God does not unconditionally elect some men for mercy and pass by others to die under his wrath. Men's actions are the conditions upon which God either builds up or destroys nations. The Jews Paul was speaking to knew these scriptures and no way understood them as Calvinists do.
Your quarrel is with Paul, not with Calvinists.
JArthur did not use Romans 9.
He said Paul uses the potter story as argument on why God can do as He pleases, and I add, whether to nations or to men.
Paul was speaking to Jews who knew the scriptures of the potter in Jeremiah 18. There is no way they (the Jews) would have believed that Paul was teaching that God unconditionally elects some men to salvation and chooses to pass by others allowing them to perish simply for his pleasure as Calvinism teaches, because that is not what is shown in Jeremiah.
It is Calvinists who misrepresent what Paul was saying. And JArthur brought up the potter in Romans 9, so how can you say he was not using it as his argument?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Winman,
That is a great passage to consider when discussing Paul's intent in Romans 9. In fact, if we look at the entire passage it is even more revealing:
1 The LORD gave another message to Jeremiah. He said, 2 "Go down to the shop where clay pots and jars are made. I will speak to you while you are there." 3 So I did as he told me and found the potter working at his wheel. 4 But the jar he was making did not turn out as he had hoped, so the potter squashed the jar into a lump of clay and started again. 5 Then the LORD gave me this message: 6 "O Israel, can I not do to you as this potter has done to his clay? As the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand. 7 If I announce that a certain nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed, 8 but then that nation renounces its evil ways, I will not destroy it as I had planned. 9 And if I announce that I will build up and plant a certain nation or kingdom, making it strong and great, 10 but then that nation turns to evil and refuses to obey me, I will not bless that nation as I had said I would.
Notice verse 4. How does this fit within the Calvinistic system? Is God hoping for something that does not happen? Could that be because man's will does actually play a role? Could it be that the potter has made vessels with a will that can "refuse to obey" or "repent and be saved?" How else do you explain verse 4?
That is a great passage to consider when discussing Paul's intent in Romans 9. In fact, if we look at the entire passage it is even more revealing:
1 The LORD gave another message to Jeremiah. He said, 2 "Go down to the shop where clay pots and jars are made. I will speak to you while you are there." 3 So I did as he told me and found the potter working at his wheel. 4 But the jar he was making did not turn out as he had hoped, so the potter squashed the jar into a lump of clay and started again. 5 Then the LORD gave me this message: 6 "O Israel, can I not do to you as this potter has done to his clay? As the clay is in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand. 7 If I announce that a certain nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed, 8 but then that nation renounces its evil ways, I will not destroy it as I had planned. 9 And if I announce that I will build up and plant a certain nation or kingdom, making it strong and great, 10 but then that nation turns to evil and refuses to obey me, I will not bless that nation as I had said I would.
Notice verse 4. How does this fit within the Calvinistic system? Is God hoping for something that does not happen? Could that be because man's will does actually play a role? Could it be that the potter has made vessels with a will that can "refuse to obey" or "repent and be saved?" How else do you explain verse 4?
The point is sovereignty. whether with nations or with men, God can do as He pleases and none can question it.
winman said:
Because he qualified it with his statement that Paul is using the potter scripture in his argument.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Good
Whatever Pauls intent, it is clear that he felt some would reject it, because what he said would seem to make God unjust. Therefore he said...
19..One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” NIV
You jump to another passage to answer 9. When chapter 9 has the answer for us.
Please look at the clear list of black and whites.
mercy ... no mercy
compassion ...no compassion
Love...hate
honour ... dishonour
one son....of the other son.
The passage is clear
Hogwash. Again, 2 tim is talking about believers. You once again show your aganda. The passage in 2 tim is telling believers to act in honour of their LORD and MASTER. It has nothing at all to do with election. In Romans 9 the talk is about ELECTION....and God can choose as he wills.
Dead means no life. A dead person can't hear...can't walk, can't talk...can't understand. And BTW..this is how the Bible tells of the non-believer
Then you are wrong.
John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin."
2 Peter 2:19 - They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
Titus 3:3 - For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
Galatians 4:8-9 - Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
Romans 6:6,16,17,19,20 - We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey...? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed... For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Romans 7:14 - For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
2 Timothy 2:25-26 - God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
Proverbs 21:10 - The soul of the wicked desires evil
John 3:19 - And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
John 8:43-44 - "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
Isaiah 1:5-6 - The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even to the head, there is no soundness in it, but bruises and sores and raw wounds; they are not pressed out or bound up or softened with oil.
Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.
Job 11:12 - But a stupid man will get understanding when a wild donkey’s colt is born a man!
1 Samuel 24:13 - "As the proverb of the ancients says, 'Out of the wicked comes wickedness.'"
Matthew 7:18 - "A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit."
Matthew 12:34-35 - "How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil."
Romans 8:7 - For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
Jarthur001
Active Member
ok...:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:
Jarthur001
Active Member
it is what it is...
And you are telling us this because you feel we have never looked?
The OT is viewed in light of the NT. Paul uses this passage to tell us the meaning. The meaning is ELECTION. Romans 9....its clear.
The old nation bit is old and don't work my friend. What nation is without people?
Tell that to God, he wrote Romans 9
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that .........the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
....You just can't get around it.:laugh: good one
Jarthur001
Active Member
i have no idea what you are talking about here
Jarthur001
Active Member
Pauls intent in light of the NT is to show what the OT means. Its all there in Romans 9. Just believe Paul, or say that Paul was using it out of context.
JArthur said:
They all know they can't get around it, yet they keep at it like mad cows.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
A question for Freewillers: Did GOD elect certain from Israel to Salvation in the Old Testament?