Whatever Pauls intent, it is clear that he felt some would reject it, because what he said would seem to make God unjust. Therefore he said...
19..One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” NIV
Again, I agree. But the question is, "Who was rejecting Paul's message?" and "What is it that makes God appear unjust to them?" In other words, who is Paul anticipating this objection from? Here are the two options, you all tell me which is most supported from the text:
1. Paul is anticipating a "Non-Calvinistic Free Willer's" objection toward Calvinism which is, "That makes God unjust because God condemns most of mankind from birth because of the Fall without any hope of salvation all the while making provision for salvation for whosoever would believe and inviting all people to believe and be saved; and acting as if he wants all to be believe and saved, but fully knowing that He has only granted a few that ability."
OR
2. Paul is anticipating the objection of a Jew who is being hardened in his rebellion which is, "That makes God unjust because I rebelled against him for years as he held out his hands to me (Rm 10:21); but now he is blinding me in that rebellion and cutting me off from the olive tree so as to allow the non-Jewish people to be grafted in."
Yes, both of these are objections to God's justice, but to use Roman's 9 as if it is answers "Free Willers" objection to Calvinism is completely unfounded.
You jump to another passage to answer 9. When chapter 9 has the answer for us.
You do know that when the letter was written he didn't divide it up into chapters and verses, right? What is true of those being hardened in chapter 9 is true of those being hardened in chapter 10 and 11, isn't it?
Please look at the clear list of black and whites.
mercy ... no mercy
compassion ...no compassion
Love...hate
honour ... dishonour
one son....of the other son.
The passage is clear
Yes it is clear, if you know how to do proper hermeneutics, which includes looking at the complete context of the passage.
Mercy: Who is being shown mercy?
No Mercy: Who is being hardened?
Chapter 9 tells us plainly:
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.
Chapter 10 tells us plainly:
I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding." 20 And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me." 21 But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."
Chapter 11 tells us plainly:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." 9 And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow
arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then,
"Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness.
Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Hogwash. Again, 2 tim is talking about believers. You once again show your aganda. The passage in 2 tim is telling believers to act in honour of their LORD and MASTER. It has nothing at all to do with election. In Romans 9 the talk is about ELECTION....and God can choose as he wills.
The fact that you even think I believe 2 Tim has to do with election proves that you didn't objectively read my post and that you really have no idea what I or other non-Calvinists believe about this. Its one thing to disagree with us, but it is something all together different to not even understand it.
Dead means no life. A dead person can't hear...can't walk, can't talk...can't understand.
By that logic we would all be still born. We are all born hearing, walking and talking. And those who are spiritually dead can respond in rebellion to God, right? How does a dead man act repulsed to things he doesn't like? The fact that we can respond to God, even by rejecting him, is proof that we CAN and DO respond. Now, can you find me ONE passage that explicitly teaches that a lost man is unable to believe the powerful Holy Spirit wrought message of reconciliation? (And please don't quote 1 Cor 2:14 because it is clear from that context that Paul is addressing believers about their inability to receive the "deep things of God."
:laugh: