Age of accountability

[percho]

perco I agree with you while I also hold out hope for babies even if scripture does not speak to it, but what I will not do is teach that there is biblical proof of the age of accountability as it is a very dangerous teaching.

while I also hold out hope for babies, Why not just, while I also hold out hope.

Well think of it like this. Does man have hope because he at some age or mental ability he is able to choose to be saved, or did Christ die for the ungodly or as Young's has it Rom. 5:6 For in our being still ailing, Christ in due time did die for the impious;

And from those ungodly/impious God is choosing a people for his name and that through those upon whom his name is called and the Lord Jesus deliverance/salvation can come to all men. See Joel 2:32 and Acts 15:17.

God is the author of faith and God is faithful.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The sheep Abraham heard the voice of God, God told this sheep at 100 years old he was going to have an heir and through that heir his seed would be uncountable. The sheep Abraham believed God. Now when God told this sheep to sacrifice his son of promise the sheep reasoned if through this son I am going to have all these seed then God must going to raise him from the dead and bring that about, therefore he obeyed God.

If God could raise Isaac form the dead he can raise any child who dies to day from the dead and give them life.

IMHO it was through the faith/faithfulness of God that this sinner Abraham was called as a sheep to bring about what God had told the serpent, Satan in the garden,"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Paul makes a statement in Gal. 3 about when Faith came which is relative to the faith of Christ. There is a moment in time when Faith came. It was the moment that Jesus the man was obedient unto death even the death on the cross. It was for this obedience of faith that Paul preached the gospel to the Gentiles (nations) It was through this obedience of death on the cross that Jesus the Christ became the author and finisher of the faith. Article The Faith for it is by the grace of God through The faith. The article is in the Greek. Grace of God in God begetting his Son in the flesh and the Faith of the Son in obedience unto death even the death on the cross that The Father would raise him from the dead.

It is the Faith of Christ. Abraham believed because he was a sheep.

The reason this comes up is because people like Eve believe Satan, thou shalt not surely die.

That hope should be for all that have lived. For hope is in the resurrected Jesus the Christ. He is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. He is Faith.

 

[freeatlast]

while I also hold out hope for babies, Why not just, while I also hold out hope.

Well think of it like this. Does man have hope because he at some age or mental ability he is able to choose to be saved, or did Christ die for the ungodly or as Young's has it Rom. 5:6 For in our being still ailing, Christ in due time did die for the impious;

And from those ungodly/impious God is choosing a people for his name and that through those upon whom his name is called and the Lord Jesus deliverance/salvation can come to all men. See Joel 2:32 and Acts 15:17.

God is the author of faith and God is faithful.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The sheep Abraham heard the voice of God, God told this sheep at 100 years old he was going to have an heir and through that heir his seed would be uncountable. The sheep Abraham believed God. Now when God told this sheep to sacrifice his son of promise the sheep reasoned if through this son I am going to have all these seed then God must going to raise him from the dead and bring that about, therefore he obeyed God.

If God could raise Isaac form the dead he can raise any child who dies to day from the dead and give them life.

IMHO it was through the faith/faithfulness of God that this sinner Abraham was called as a sheep to bring about what God had told the serpent, Satan in the garden,"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Paul makes a statement in Gal. 3 about when Faith came which is relative to the faith of Christ. There is a moment in time when Faith came. It was the moment that Jesus the man was obedient unto death even the death on the cross. It was for this obedience of faith that Paul preached the gospel to the Gentiles (nations) It was through this obedience of death on the cross that Jesus the Christ became the author and finisher of the faith. Article The Faith for it is by the grace of God through The faith. The article is in the Greek. Grace of God in God begetting his Son in the flesh and the Faith of the Son in obedience unto death even the death on the cross that The Father would raise him from the dead.

It is the Faith of Christ. Abraham believed because he was a sheep.

The reason this comes up is because people like Eve believe Satan, thou shalt not surely die.

That hope should be for all that have lived. For hope is in the resurrected Jesus the Christ. He is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. He is Faith.

I don't have a clue what you are trying to say in that post. I just know that the teaching of age of accountability is dangerous and the bible never deals with it.

 

[percho]

I don't have a clue what you are trying to say in that post. I just know that the teaching of age of accountability is dangerous and the bible never deals with it.

I was showing from scripture.

Age has nothing to do with salvation. Please do not worry any more for a baby than you would for a 125 year old man. Both have to be saved by God.

A man's faith has nothing to do with salvation.

The salvation of man comes about because of the Grace of God through The faith of Jesus the Christ.

 

[webdog]

I was showing from scripture.

Age has nothing to do with salvation. Please do not worry any more for a baby than you would for a 125 year old man. Both have to be saved by God.

A man's faith has nothing to do with salvation.

The salvation of man comes about because of the Grace of God through The faith of Jesus the Christ.

I cannot believe how many people here so blatantly and openly dismiss sola fide in favor of hyper cal beliefs! God help us if this is what christendom is coming to!

What does Jesus need faith in...He is God?!

 

[freeatlast]

I was showing from scripture.

Age has nothing to do with salvation. Please do not worry any more for a baby than you would for a 125 year old man. Both have to be saved by God.

A man's faith has nothing to do with salvation.

The salvation of man comes about because of the Grace of God through The faith of Jesus the Christ.

I hope you do not mean that as that is heresy.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes there is an age of accountability.
It is the moment of conception.....we are accountable to God...and dead in Adams sin....we being dead are constituted sinners....some remain that way and go into second death at the white throne......
The "others are the elect sheep" who are quickened to Spiritual life when God sovereignly moves upon them. they are saved...no more, no less.:type:

 

[Robert Snow]

Yes there is an age of accountability.
It is the moment of conception.....we are accountable to God...and dead in Adams sin....we being dead are constituted sinners....some remain that way and go into second death at the white throne......
The "others are the elect sheep" who are quickened to Spiritual life when God sovereignly moves upon them. they are saved...no more, no less.:type:

So a two week old baby that dies suddenly finds itself in Hell. Of course they know nothing about where they are or why. This is what you believe God does? This is what your interpretation of Scripture lead to? Perhaps you need to back away from the councils, creeds and other trappings Calvinism has burdened you with and get back to the Word of God!

 

[matt wade]

Yes there is an age of accountability.
It is the moment of conception.....

A baby 5 minutes before birth is not accountable, but a baby 5 minutes after birth is accountable? Man, they sure did a lot of growing up in 10 minutes.

 

[freeatlast]

So a two week old baby that dies suddenly finds itself in Hell. Of course they know nothing about where they are or why. This is what you believe God does? This is what your interpretation of Scripture lead to? Perhaps you need to back away from the councils, creeds and other trappings Calvinism has burdened you with and get back to the Word of God!

Your view is emotionally based not biblically based. While I am certain that Iconoclast as well as myself would hope for them being spared the scripture never deals with the issue and to teach as it does is very dangerous.

 

[Amy.G]

Yes there is an age of accountability.
It is the moment of conception.....we are accountable to God...and dead in Adams sin....we being dead are constituted sinners....some remain that way and go into second death at the white throne......
The "others are the elect sheep" who are quickened to Spiritual life when God sovereignly moves upon them. they are saved...no more, no less.:type:

What is God's purpose for allowing "some" infants to "remain dead in sin" and go to hell?

Does that glorify Him?

Is that mercy?

 

[Iconoclast]

So a two week old baby that dies suddenly finds itself in Hell. Of course they know nothing about where they are or why. This is what you believe God does? This is what your interpretation of Scripture lead to? Perhaps you need to back away from the councils, creeds and other trappings Calvinism has burdened you with and get back to the Word of God!

Robert Snow,
The confession answers this very question completely...I will include it at the end of this post.
I leave all such persons in the hands of the God of the bible who always does what is Holy ,just and good....do you?
If he saves only one baby, or if he saves all babies according to His elective purposes...is that alright with you ?
Let me ask you Robert...if God for whatever Holy reason he has decides not to save all babies....is that okay with you?
When God destroyed the world of the ungodly by the flood...men ,women, and children...did they all die? or just the adults?
Do you have a problem with God saying this?

1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Can and do you worship this God Robert??? This is the God on John 3:16.
I can and do worship Him. if you do not , then you are worshipping a god of your own imagination.
here is the perfect answer to the question, from believers who were wiser than you or I.....
[QUOTE]._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
[/QUOTE]

This is perfectly worded as it leaves the secret things to God.
Has He chosen to elect all such infants? That is up to Him who always does what is right. I do not question God or His motives like several of you do in here. I believe the scriptural testimony that God has graciously revealed about himself.

 

[Robert Snow]

Your view is emotionally based not biblically based. While I am certain that Iconoclast as well as myself would hope for them being spared the scripture never deals with the issue and to teach as it does is very dangerous.

You don't agree with anyone else, why should you agree with me?

 

[freeatlast]

You don't agree with anyone else, why should you agree with me?

If you start agreeing with the bible instead of deciding how you would like things to be then we will agree.

 

[Iconoclast]

A baby 5 minutes before birth is not accountable, but a baby 5 minutes after birth is accountable? Man, they sure did a lot of growing up in 10 minutes.

Matt,

At one time I was a health teacher and learned that conception and birth were usually seperated by 8-9 months..
At conception, fertilization,.....[remember the film in health class that shows the one little sperm cell that gets through to the egg]

at that point , that is an eternal soul, accountable , and guilty before God, because of the imputation of Adams sin.

If that baby dies along the way.....it is completely in God's hands.....

if the baby is born and grows old...it is completely in God's hands...

Every sinner God has mercy on will be saved.

Any infant that is saved....is saved by God;s mercy being applied to them...not because they were innocent...{they were guilty in Adam}
but because God chose them to salvation.

maybe read the posts a little more carefully.

 

[Iconoclast]

Your view is emotionally based not biblically based. While I am certain that Iconoclast as well as myself would hope for them being spared the scripture never deals with the issue and to teach as it does is very dangerous.

Freeatlast,
You have been doing a good job providing answers for those who want help . Some do not want, or welcome the help/
Many get side tracked emotionally on several issues.
This is one of them. Most express an opinion like in the article posted by Spurgeon on the infants. Many look at the character of God overall and hope for the best, based on the abundance of His gracious promises.
If they understood properly the grace of God none of this discussion would be happening.
if they properly understood the gracious promise of Romans 8:28-39.. this discussion would not be necessary.
At the root of this argument is those who have a false and man centered view of man choosing ,instead of God ...have to panic as infants cannot make a decision, or accept Jesus......so they have to invent false ideas to bridge the gap...that only God's grace and mercy can fill.

What about sweet little grandma...who bakes nice cookies, and pies, and smiles alot, and grows flowers in the garden......but never looks at scripture, and does not care about the things of God? Is she a wicked and ungodly reprobate? Is this just about as disturbing ...humanly speaking to think of grandma, going into the second death?
One minute she is knitting a sweater, the next she is in the eternal state apart from Christ.
While we would desire all kinds of men and woman to be saved..we read of multitudes who perish as Jesus said in Jn 8;

24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

 

[Gina B]

Well boo-hoo. I just typed this up for a thread that just closed but it fits here so I ain't wasting it!

Someone posted about the scriptures that speak of children having their angels in heaven.

So what are angels? Hebrews `1:14 (Darby version) defines angels as follows: Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?

If someone has an angel, wouldn't that mean that anyone who has an angel is set to inherit salvation? Looking at the instances we find in scripture about children, angels and heaven, the logical conclusion is that all children have a ministering spirit (angel) but not all adults do. That means that there comes a point in time where a human becomes capable of being responsible for sin.

As a Calvinist, this throws me somewhat as it both supports and contrasts my view. It supports the concept of election, but questions unconditional election. Unless that election is only for adults, but that's kinda stretching it. Something I'll have to think on with my own beliefs but anyhow...

It doesn't negate the fact that everything in Scripture points to all children being elect.

Numbers 14: 29-30 (Darby) says "In this wilderness shall your carcases fall; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number from twenty years old and upwards, who have murmured against me, 30shall in no wise come into the land, concerning which I have lifted up my hand to make you dwell in it; save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun."



That seems to support the idea that there is an age where a person becomes responsible. According to this, that age is twenty. It doesn't say those 20 and under never murmured against God, but it does say that those over 20 who did would not enter the land. That also seems supported by science as new ways of studying the brain come about. Some say that the brain is finished growing (not to be confused with the end of synapsis connections ability) at age 20. Some are now saying maybe around 25. Some used to say 18. It's an unsure science, but one thing I'm positive on is that even if that age has ever changed through the generations, God knew what the age was at that time.


Someone elsewhere implied that a baby who is angry may be sinning. Have I seen an angry infant? Yep, been there and done that. I'd never say a baby is sinning by being angry. They don't have the capacity to understand right and wrong. The ability to correct a baby simply lies in teaching them to associate a negative response to a behavior they have. If there is to be ANY argument about sin in childhood, it doesn't make sense to even speak of it concerning babies as they simply don't have that concept. And being angry isn't a sin anyhow. Any baby will cry when they do not have a need met. Yes, they will even get angry when a need is not met. It's their only way of communication. Nourishment, affection, security and comfort are all things babies seek unless they are conditioned otherwise. Which can be scary. Ever see videos of babies in overcrowded orphanages who just don't cry or react to discomfort? It's really sad. But it's also a learned behavior. If nobody comes when they need them, they quit doing what they need to do in order to have their needs met.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello Gina,

This passage has been used several times by some trying to makea case for age of accountability....as if they were not accountable/
Does this list of verses that indicate that those who curse father and mother were not accountable when they were executed for this sin?
God allowed them to live to preserve the godly line

1.Exodus 21:17
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 21:16-18 (in Context) Exodus 21 (Whole Chapter)
2.Leviticus 20:9
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
Leviticus 20:8-10 (in Context) Leviticus 20 (Whole Chapter)
3.Proverbs 20:20
Whoso curseth his father or his mother, his lamp shall be put out in obscure darkness.
Proverbs 20:19-21 (in Context) Proverbs 20 (Whole Chapter)
4.Proverbs 30:11
There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
Proverbs 30:10-12 (in Context) Proverbs 30 (Whole Chapter)
5.Matthew 15:4
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Matthew 15:3-5 (in Context) Matthew 15 (Whole Chapter)
6.Mark 7:10
For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Mark 7:9-11 (in Context) Mark 7 (Whole Chapter)

Babies cry sometimes they are hungry,or need a diaper change.yes

But sometimes they cry for selfish reasons...just to manipulate and control.

A baby bird does not go to flight school to learn to fly...it is inborn.it might have to develop strength and feathers first.

Babies do not go to sin university to learn how to sin..being physically alive ,but spiritually dead they just need to grow and get stronger, and sin comes very naturally. Although dead in adam at conception...as they grow they soon commit sins of their own.
Just take nursery duty at church and spend some time in that combat zone and you will see many manifestations of sin. If you look just right, I believe you can see a small version of Adam and Eve before God...hiding and covering sin....

 

[percho]

I hope you do not mean that as that is heresy.

Paul wrote it even if it is heresy.

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Lets brake this verse down.

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin
that
the promise
by faith of Jesus
Christ
might be given
to them that believe.

All under sin means, All, boys, girls, babies, old men, old women, all are under sin.

so that

the promise. What promise? Read nine commentaries and none gave the correct answer as to what this promise is that is given to believers.Not one.
And it is right here in this same chapter.
Gal. 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the faith. The article the is in the Greek. This promise of the Spirit is the promise made to Abraham and his seed Christ. Why would the Christ have to be given a promise of the Holy Spirit? Because even though he was begotten of the Spirit God he is the seed of Abraham a man that is going to die. That is where the faith of Jesus comes in he died. Did he received this promise from God the Father? Your bible says he did. Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit.

by faith of Jesus means just what it says because of his faith

Christ = anointed For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ, that is Anointed

might be given, None of the nine commented.one said the emphasis is on given but he didn't know what was given. It is because of the faith of Jesus Christ he received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father.

to them that believe The ones that hear his voice. His sheep, like Paul on the road, he heard his voice and answered the ones with him heard a voice but did not understand. The rest of Acts 2:33 he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Or as it says in Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; After Jesus had been renewed with It in verse 5,


Show me with scripture the heresy,

 

[psalms109:31]

IQuote:
Originally Posted by Earth, Wind & Fire View Post
has anyone read what Spurgeon said about it?

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0411.htm
Spurgeon who? Is he now the authority or the word of God?

Thank you EWF for such a wonderful article to bring to the table. Spurgeon is not the authority of the word of God. God working through Spurgeon amazes me how God through one man can bring millions to Jesus Christ the only one who can save. The working of the Holy Spirit through a man how can this be that He can use one, a remnant to bring so many to the cross of Jesus Christ.

 

[convicted1]

Matt,

At one time I was a health teacher and learned that conception and birth were usually seperated by 8-9 months..
At conception, fertilization,.....[remember the film in health class that shows the one little sperm cell that gets through to the egg]

at that point , that is an eternal soul, accountable , and guilty before God, because of the imputation of Adams sin.

If that baby dies along the way.....it is completely in God's hands.....

if the baby is born and grows old...it is completely in God's hands...

Every sinner God has mercy on will be saved.

Any infant that is saved....is saved by God;s mercy being applied to them...not because they were innocent...{they were guilty in Adam}
but because God chose them to salvation.

maybe read the posts a little more carefully.

Gonna have to ask you a question Brother Iconoclast. Where did this "eternal soul" come from???