Age of accountability

[Winman]

Iconoclast, I am quite aware that Paul is speaking of the nation of Israel being rejected because of unbelief, and the Gentile nations being grafted in. You have only supported my argument, an argument correctly presented by Skandelon many times.

Election is not unconditional, those who believe are chosen, those who do not believe and are "fitted to destruction" are broken off.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, I am quite aware that Paul is speaking of the nation of Israel being rejected because of unbelief, and the Gentile nations being grafted in. You have only supported my argument, an argument correctly presented by Skandelon many times.

Election is not unconditional, those who believe are chosen, those who do not believe and are "fitted to destruction" are broken off.

Winman,
You said this in your post;

This passage is speaking of the NATION of Israel (as was Paul in Romans 9). God is not saying he chose from the foundation of the world to save some and pass by others

Paul speaks about gentiles coming in worldwide....they also are elected individually to salvation as was the elect remnant in Israel.
Because you refuse the doctrines of grace you cannot see it.

Election is not unconditional, those who believe are chosen, those who do not believe and are "fitted to destruction" are broken off.[/

Election is unconditional.
As long as this verse is in the bible...the view you keep putting out will be false...the order is never reversed..
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

never the other way around...never....

 

[Winman]

Iconoclast, you ignore chapter 11 where Paul says the Gentiles who have been graffed in STANDEST BY FAITH.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded but fear:

And you ignore where Paul said if the Jews abide not still in unbelief, God is able to graff them in AGAIN.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

These Jew's fates are not fixed. They are broken off because of unbelief, but if they turn and believe God is able to graff them in AGAIN.

This shows they were originally elect, but were broken off because of unbelief. This shows election is conditional, based upon belief.

You pull scripture out of context which causes you to err.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, you ignore chapter 11 where Paul says the Gentiles who have been graffed in STANDEST BY FAITH.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded but fear:

And you ignore where Paul said if the Jews abide not still in unbelief, God is able to graff them in AGAIN.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

These Jew's fates are not fixed. They are broken off because of unbelief, but if they turn and believe God is able to graff them in AGAIN.

This shows they were originally elect, but were broken off because of unbelief. This shows election is conditional, based upon belief.

You pull scripture out of context which causes you to err.

Deal with chapter 9 first
your view of election is completely wrong, not all israel is of Israel

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

 

[Winman]

Deal with chapter 9 first
your view of election is completely wrong, not all israel is of Israel

I agree. I have said several times now that the elect are those that believe.

The Jews as a nation were chosen by God. But not all Jews believed. Those who did not believe were broken off the natural olive tree.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The natural olive tree is Israel. It is the chosen nation. Those Jews who did not believe were broken off. How can you break limbs off a tree that were not first on the tree?

The Gentiles who believe are "graffed in".

Those Jews who continue not in unbelief can be graffed in "again". How could Paul say "again" if these Jews did not first belong to the natural olive tree?

 

[convicted1]

Bro Iconoclast, you posted this to a question I posed to you:

Willis.....
You asked this in the closed thread also...post 79....and that is where you started saying if God gives the spirit/soul to man...and it is dead in sin....would that make God the author of sin???

Willis....let me say this very clearly. God cannot sin.God does not make anyone sin. God is not and cannot be the author of sin.
I personally do not even like to discuss this idea as I see it as part of fallen mens idea to rebel against God's revelation. I see this idea come up against those who hold to God's grace.

You still did not answer my original question of where the "eternal soul" comes from at the point of conception, Brother. Please answer this concisely as possible, because there are only two viable answers. One, it comes from God, or two, it comes from the union of sperm-egg. Thanks in advance.

 

[Skandelon]

I agree. I have said several times now that the elect are those that believe.

The Jews as a nation were chosen by God. But not all Jews believed. Those who did not believe were broken off the natural olive tree.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The natural olive tree is Israel. It is the chosen nation. Those Jews who did not believe were broken off. How can you break limbs off a tree that were not first on the tree?

The Gentiles who believe are "graffed in".

Those Jews who continue not in unbelief can be graffed in "again". How could Paul say "again" if these Jews did not first belong to the natural olive tree?

Well presented! :thumbs:

Calvinists love Romans 9 but fail to reconcile their views of Romans 9 with Paul's teaching in Romans 11, IMO.

 

[percho]

Calvinists love to quote "the potter" from Romans 9, but never go to the OT to see what Paul was speaking of.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Note verse 6, this is what Paul was quoting in Romans 9. Those Jews who heard him understood this.

This passage is speaking of the NATION of Israel (as was Paul in Romans 9). God is not saying he chose from the foundation of the world to save some and pass by others.

Notice in verses 7-8 that God says if a NATION turns from it's evil, he will repent of the evil he thought to do unto them.

Notice verses 9-10, God says when he speaks to build a NATION and plant it, if they do evil he will repent of the good that he had spoken concerning them.

So, this building up and planting of a nation is not unconditional. It is based upon whether a nation obeys or rebels against God.

This is what Paul was speaking of in Romans 9. Moses obeyed God, and so God built him up (and Israel). Pharaoh rebelled against God and so God pulled him (and Egypt) down.

You need to study the OT to understand the NT.

Actually that isn't what the passage is about at all.

 

[Iconoclast]

Bro Iconoclast, you posted this to a question I posed to you:



You still did not answer my original question of where the "eternal soul" comes from at the point of conception, Brother. Please answer this concisely as possible, because there are only two viable answers. One, it comes from God, or two, it comes from the union of sperm-egg. Thanks in advance.

Willis,
Our spirit/soul comes from God. The part of the spirit /soul that can know God is dead because of Adams sin...it is a consequence of the fall.

When we are born again....it is this part of our non physical person that gets quickened ..or made alive.

I do not like to use illustrations as they are flawed,but let me try this;

You come into a large sum of money,buy a new house and brand new appliances.....The refrigerator is brand new...but as long as it is ...seperated from the power supply...it cannot function as it is meant to.
You can place some cans in there for storage....but perishable items will rot because the cooling element has no power to function as it was designed too.
man is given His spirit/soul by God. The part that communes with God cannot function properly until God brings it to life.
We all have a spirit...but is dead because of the fall. It cannot function as it was meant to. 1cor2:14 romans 8;7

A spiritually dead man can function well enough to be religious, worship idols, invent gods of his imagination, be philosophical, even talk about God and the bible....but without Spiritual illumination..they can NEVER come to truth on their own.
Willis some people in the flesh...can try and imitate real christians for awhile..but eventually you see they do not get it.
this is why I try to caution some in here to be extremely careful when what you hold goes against the mainstream of what the confessional church has agreed on.
Willis it is sad to me that I find that I have more in common with Presbyterians than many baptists in here!

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,

I agree. I have said several times now that the elect are those that believe.

The Jews as a nation were chosen by God. But not all Jews believed. Those who did not believe were broken off the natural olive tree.

belief does not come before election....all the elect will believe in time.

It is not their belief that makes them elect.

 

[DHK]

Winman,



belief does not come before election....all the elect will believe in time.

It is not their belief that makes them elect.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard?
18 Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. (Romans 10:16-18)
--Even the unsaved Jew had to believe before he was saved.
Belief always came before salvation no matter which way you look at it.
One cannot look back in hindsight and say: Oh yes, he was one of the elect because he is saved now. That is foolishness. Only the Lord knows them that are His. Don't pretend that we can know.

 

[Robert Snow]

Calvinists love to quote "the potter" from Romans 9, but never go to the OT to see what Paul was speaking of.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Note verse 6, this is what Paul was quoting in Romans 9. Those Jews who heard him understood this.

This passage is speaking of the NATION of Israel (as was Paul in Romans 9). God is not saying he chose from the foundation of the world to save some and pass by others.

Notice in verses 7-8 that God says if a NATION turns from it's evil, he will repent of the evil he thought to do unto them.

Notice verses 9-10, God says when he speaks to build a NATION and plant it, if they do evil he will repent of the good that he had spoken concerning them.

So, this building up and planting of a nation is not unconditional. It is based upon whether a nation obeys or rebels against God.

This is what Paul was speaking of in Romans 9. Moses obeyed God, and so God built him up (and Israel). Pharaoh rebelled against God and so God pulled him (and Egypt) down.

You need to study the OT to understand the NT.

Thanks Winman, this is a wonderful explanation. No wonder Calvinists never mention Jeremiah when discussing Romans 9. It destroys their premise!

 

[Iconoclast]

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard?
18 Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. (Romans 10:16-18)
--Even the unsaved Jew had to believe before he was saved.
Belief always came before salvation no matter which way you look at it.
One cannot look back in hindsight and say: Oh yes, he was one of the elect because he is saved now. That is foolishness. Only the Lord knows them that are His. Don't pretend that we can know.

DHK
We can know...
Explain acts 13:48
Explain jn 10:26

The passage in romans you are offering here..deal more with Faith and belief, rather tha election and belief.

 

[Iconoclast]

Robert Snow,

Thanks Winman, this is a wonderful explanation. No wonder Calvinists never mention Jeremiah when discussing Romans 9. It destroys their premise!
__________________

not at all..it establishes the premise if you understand it...but when you do not want to understand it...anything will do

 

[Rippon]

One cannot look back in hindsight and say: Oh yes, he was one of the elect because he is saved now. That is foolishness. Only the Lord knows them that are His. Don't pretend that we can know.

If one is really saved --that person is indeed elect.

That is not foolishness.

Of course only the Lord knows those that are His own. no one here is saying that we have intimate knowledge of who the elect are as the Lord Himself does.

 

[percho]

Thanks Winman, this is a wonderful explanation. No wonder Calvinists never mention Jeremiah when discussing Romans 9. It destroys their premise!

See my post #68

 

[convicted1]

Thanks Bro. Iconoclast for the response. Now we are making "headway" on this topic. Now you said this right here:

Willis,
Our spirit/soul comes from God.

I agree with this 100%!!! :thumbs:

The part of the spirit /soul that can know God is dead because of Adams sin...it is a consequence of the fall.

That which I bolded....???? I thought that the soul was completely fallen, but it seems you said that only the part can know God is dead?? Please explain this further, please? Also, take into consideration these following verses:

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

So if Jesus gave the command to love the Lord with all your soul, then why would just part of the soul be dead? The soul dies when God imputes sin unto an individual. If it(soul) comes from Him in an already fallen state, then the fault of sin lays on Him, and not mankind.

When we are born again....it is this part of our non physical person that gets quickened ..or made alive.

Again, I agree with you 100%!!! :thumbs:

I do not like to use illustrations as they are flawed,but let me try this;

You come into a large sum of money,buy a new house and brand new appliances.....The refrigerator is brand new...but as long as it is ...seperated from the power supply...it cannot function as it is meant to.
You can place some cans in there for storage....but perishable items will rot because the cooling element has no power to function as it was designed too.
man is given His spirit/soul by God. The part that communes with God cannot function properly until God brings it to life.
We all have a spirit...but is dead because of the fall. It cannot function as it was meant to. 1cor2:14 romans 8;7

True, but ALL refrigerators were/are made to receive the "power" from their "power source". In you line of reasoning, only some "refrigerators" are designed to receive the "power" from their "power source", while others are not.. But, in actuality, all refrigerators are made to acquire the "power".

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Funny thing. I agree with these two verses you used. So, they do not help, or hinder your case, if you ask me.


Lets look at this verse here:

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Now, this has to include all mankind, because all of us have a soul/spirit. I am one who holds to man being two parts, flesh and spirit/soul, where spirit and soul are synomous with each other....but that's another thread right there. So all will come to "knowledge" of God, but only those who heed what He is saying to them, will be saved.

A spiritually dead man can function well enough to be religious, worship idols, invent gods of his imagination, be philosophical, even talk about God and the bible....but without Spiritual illumination..they can NEVER come to truth on their own.

Again, I agree with you 100%!! :thumbs:

Willis some people in the flesh...can try and imitate real christians for awhile..but eventually you see they do not get it.

I agree.....they having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof.

this is why I try to caution some in here to be extremely careful when what you hold goes against the mainstream of what the confessional church has agreed on.

The mainstream church you are talking about is of the Calvinist/DoG persuasion. To those of us who do not hold to Calvinist's beliefs will obviously reject their confessions.

Willis it is sad to me that I find that I have more in common with Presbyterians than many baptists in here!

When the Presby's have the same view doctrinally as you have, I can understand why you have more in common with them. I have more in common with the FWB(churches that is), than the "hard-line" Baptists. I don't agree with some of what the FWB believe, but there is much in common. That is what I am looking for. Common ground for us to get along. That is all I want, harmony amongst the Brethern, and Cisterns....LOL

i am I AM's!!

Willis