Age of accountability

[convicted1]

Bro. Iconoclast,

You posted this scripture in one of your previous posts:

1 Samuel 15:3[/B] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Here is a prime example of the verse y'all DoG'ers love to use!!

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[matt wade]

Matt,

At one time I was a health teacher and learned that conception and birth were usually seperated by 8-9 months..
At conception, fertilization,.....[remember the film in health class that shows the one little sperm cell that gets through to the egg]

at that point , that is an eternal soul, accountable , and guilty before God, because of the imputation of Adams sin.

If that baby dies along the way.....it is completely in God's hands.....

if the baby is born and grows old...it is completely in God's hands...

Every sinner God has mercy on will be saved.

Any infant that is saved....is saved by God;s mercy being applied to them...not because they were innocent...{they were guilty in Adam}
but because God chose them to salvation.

maybe read the posts a little more carefully.

Yes, my fault...i was tired and misread the post. Of course that just makes your stance even more ridiculous.

 

[freeatlast]

I realize that this subject is a difficult one. There are a lot of emotions involved especially for those who have lost children. However even in the mist of deep emotions God's word should not be tampered with, added to, or have parts of it removed to sooth someone's feelings.

There simply is no teaching in scripture that deals with the death of a child and their place in eternity. When man decides to speak for God when God has not spoken we come up with a myriad of teachings on the matter as to what constitutes the age or the circumstances of age of accountability. I have heard ages as high as in the twenties for a cut off age and as low as a few months and some have no age and leave it open which can go on for the entire life.

The problem is that any attempt man makes to create doctrine it is done in vain and always destroys REAL truths that are spoken about in scripture. At best we can only hope that those who are unable to respond because of age or mental infirmity are somehow covered, but if they are they have to be covered under the blood of Jesus just like everyone else and there is no provision given to let us know how that can happen keeping in mind that even our hope must have its limits so as not to decide for God, but rather with Him in this area and any other. It is an issue of simply trusting the Lord no matter what He has decided as to their fate.

We would do much better to just say scripture does not deal with the issue and we do not know, but because we believe in a loving and merciful God, we are confident that what ever He has planned for them it is the right decision.

I can assure everyone that God's name does not need defending by man seeking to create doctrine that makes Him look good. God is good and He always does what is right. The problem is we do not know how to distinguish what that is without a word from Him. Nor should we decide to cover the sinfulness of human kind because of the outward appearance of what seems to be innocence. As difficult as it may be to accept we are born sinners, conceived as such, and proven it to be true in every life that has lived long enough to give evidence, which is a very short time from birth to the first evidence and we must accept that fact as scripture makes that clear. Sin is present even without the learning of it and it always raises its ugly head as soon as possible.

So may I remind all that God is good and He is also just, but we are not and we do not have the ability to decide what constitutes either goodness or justice in the nature of God, and if we have even a smattering of the fear of God we would be wise not to try and determine what the parameters are without a clear revelation from Him.

 

[Robert Snow]

If you start agreeing with the bible instead of deciding how you would like things to be then we will agree.

The problem is not with what the bible teaches, the problem is with some of your twisted views and bizarre methods of interpretation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Deut 29:29. 'The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things that are revealed belong to us......'

Scripture does not speak of an age of accountability. Those who die in infancy or who are so mentally impaired as not to be able to understand the Gospel we lay in the hands of God saying, 'Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?' (Gen 18:25).

The article below is mostly against paedo-baptism, but it may be helpful to some wondering about SCriptures like Matt 19: 13-15.

http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2009/12/24/babes-in-christ/

Steve

 

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

Yes there is an age of accountability.
It is the moment of conception.....we are accountable to God...and dead in Adams sin....we being dead are constituted sinners....some remain that way and go into second death at the white throne......
The "others are the elect sheep" who are quickened to Spiritual life when God sovereignly moves upon them. they are saved...no more, no less.

Still waiting for an answer to my question (from post #30), which is:

What is God's purpose for allowing "some" infants to "remain dead in sin" and go to hell?

Does that glorify Him?

Is that mercy?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Originally Posted by Iconoclast

What is God's purpose for allowing "some" infants to "remain dead in sin" and go to hell?

Does that glorify Him?

Is that mercy?

'Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding' (Prov 3:5).

Steve

 

[Skandelon]

'Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding' (Prov 3:5).

Steve

I actually do agree that this is really the best way to look at this matter. Though, as shown, there are some passages which seem to indicate that God will save babies who die (i.e. David), I still think the strongest approach is to trust God.

Think about it. If you have a beloved grandparent or friend who you knew had your child with them, would you be concerned for their lives or their best interest? No, of course not. Why? Because you love and trust them. So too, if we really love and trust God can't we believe that He will do what is best with our child?

 

[JesusFan]

Think my biggest problem on this subject is that some here hold that God cannot save apart from faith alone in Jesus, as faith itself does NOT save us, its the way we access what saves us, Grace of God!

Aren't we "limiting" God if we state that He cannot effectually apply His grace towards those unable to meet His own faith requirement?

Wouldn't this be similiar to God having capital punishment for adultery, part of the law, but able to supercede that and pardon David for his inquity?

 

[freeatlast]

Think my biggest problem on this subject is that some here hold that God cannot save apart from faith alone in Jesus, as faith itself does NOT save us, its the way we access what saves us, Grace of God!

Aren't we "limiting" God if we state that He cannot effectually apply His grace towards those unable to meet His own faith requirement?

Wouldn't this be similiar to God having capital punishment for adultery, part of the law, but able to supercede that and pardon David for his inquity?

No it is not the same. On is God ordaining something and the other is man ordaining something which is adding to scripture. There is no age of accountability in scripture. That is man’s doctrine, not God’s.
By the way we might want to look at a law that brings the death penalty for adultery as it agrees with God's standard and nothing is better then His standard.

 

[JesusFan]

No it is not the same. On is God ordaining something and the other is man ordaining something which is adding to scripture. There is no age of accountability in scripture. That is man’s doctrine, not God’s.
By the way we might want to look at a law that brings the death penalty for adultery as it agrees with God's standard and nothing is better then His standard.

No, as God highest standard is the Law of Christ, which is to forgive and restore another caught in act of adultry, see in John 8 where Jesus forgave the woman in adultry!

 

[percho]

The very reason one would believe there needs to be an age of accountability is because one deep down in his heart believes man is ultimately responsible for his own salvation. God made the way but it is up to you to decide if that way will apply or not.

I believe God made the way and God will be the ultimate judge of who is given life, outside of anything you think, believe or do.

King James Bible
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.


Iconoclast

Would like your thoughts on something.

I believe abortion to be murder by man against man. My question. In the case of a miscarriage regardless of when it takes place are there any spiritual implications to miscarriage or does God bring it about for other reasons.

The only scripture I can think of off the top of my head and don't know if relative or not is Isa. 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [the womb]? saith thy God. KJV Gowever I believe Young's to be more accurate YNG
`Do I bring to the birth, And not cause to bring forth?' saith Jehovah, `Am not I He who is causing to beget? I have also restrained,' said thy God.

I understand this is to a nation but I see no reason it could not be applied to physical birth also.

 

[percho]

Think my biggest problem on this subject is that some here hold that God cannot save apart from faith alone in Jesus, as faith itself does NOT save us, its the way we access what saves us, Grace of God!

Aren't we "limiting" God if we state that He cannot effectually apply His grace towards those unable to meet His own faith requirement?

Wouldn't this be similiar to God having capital punishment for adultery, part of the law, but able to supercede that and pardon David for his inquity?

Read my post. That is the very reason the faith that saves is not the faith someone has in.

It is the faith of the one doing the saving.

If it were the other way around then one would be saving himself.

It is by the faith of Jesus, Jesus is able to give the promise of the Holy Spirit to those God calls. 3:14 says the exact same thing.

Read James Burton Coffman's commentary on Gal. 3:22. He understands it has to be the faith of Jesus in this verse yet he adds a twist that isn't true to the rest of the chapter.

 

[Iconoclast]

What is God's purpose for allowing "some" infants to "remain dead in sin" and go to hell?

Does that glorify Him?

Is that mercy?

AMYG
I do not know if God's purpose is to have elected all infants who die in infancy. If He has in His holy wise knowledge determined to do so that would be wonderful.
If for His Holy purpose He has chosen not to do so....that will be fine also.

God gets glory in the salvation of sinners,and in the righteous damnation of sinners also.

I believe the God of the whole earth will do right always..100%

23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

When God sends someone to hell...no...it is not mercy ,but rather justice.

 

[Don]

The ultimate, perhaps "extreme hyper" conclusion of this is: Sit back and do nothing. Whatever you do is okay. Abortion is acceptable. Because it all fits with what God has ordained, and therefore, it is all right and wonderful.

 

[Iconoclast]

Percho

Iconoclast

Would like your thoughts on something.

I believe abortion to be murder by man against man. My question. In the case of a miscarriage regardless of when it takes place are there any spiritual implications to miscarriage or does God bring it about for other reasons.

The only scripture I can think of off the top of my head and don't know if relative or not is Isa. 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [the womb]? saith thy God. KJV Gowever I believe Young's to be more accurate YNG
`Do I bring to the birth, And not cause to bring forth?' saith Jehovah, `Am not I He who is causing to beget? I have also restrained,' said thy God.

I understand this is to a nation but I see no reason it could not be applied to physical birth also.

There are no accidents , mistakes, or random acts in God's eternal purpose.
God opens and closes the womb. God allows conception.

5But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb.

6And her adversary also provoked her sore, for to make her fret, because the LORD had shut up her womb.

19And they rose up in the morning early, and worshipped before the LORD, and returned, and came to their house to Ramah: and Elkanah knew Hannah his wife; and the LORD remembered her.

20Wherefore it came to pass, when the time was come about after Hannah had conceived, that she bare a son, and called his name Samuel, saying, Because I have asked him of the LORD.

the scripture acknowleges that some babies do not come to full term.
1.Job 3:16
Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light. Job 3:15-17 (in Context) Job 3 (Whole Chapter)
2.Psalm 58:8
As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun. Psalm 58:7-9 (in Context) Psalm 58 (Whole Chapter)
3.Ecclesiastes 6:3
If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.
Ecclesiastes 6:2-4 (in Context) Ecclesiastes 6 (Whole Chapter)


God who allows conception to begin with ,also ordains our days as part of the secret things of Deut29. He knows our frame;

Psalm 103:14
For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

Jesus is with us in the midst of every difficult time in our life.

I heard in a sermon, that John Calvin had a 9 yr old daughter who died. After grieving her death ....he said he would have it no other way!
He had such trust in God's goodness that while death is unnatural he knew God has a purpose for everything that happens in time. He would never think to sin by questioning God's motives ..even in his grief.

 

[Iconoclast]

Gonna have to ask you a question Brother Iconoclast. Where did this "eternal soul" come from???

Willis.....
You asked this in the closed thread also...post 79....and that is where you started saying if God gives the spirit/soul to man...and it is dead in sin....would that make God the author of sin???

Willis....let me say this very clearly. God cannot sin.God does not make anyone sin. God is not and cannot be the author of sin.
I personally do not even like to discuss this idea as I see it as part of fallen mens idea to rebel against God's revelation. I see this idea come up against those who hold to God's grace.

you say this;

Bro. Iconoclast,

You posted this scripture in one of your previous posts:


Quote:
1 Samuel 15:3[/B] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Here is a prime example of the verse y'all DoG'ers love to use!!

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[/QUOTEor seem to be very hard verses.


This quote was in my reponse to Robert Snow..... we have to learn about and worship the God of the bible. All these verses deal with His righteous judgements..... Humanly speaking they are ,or seem to be very hard verses.

As believers....we not only need to understand them...but to embrace them as God's righteous judgements

 

[percho]

Percho



There are no accidents , mistakes, or random acts in God's eternal purpose.
God opens and closes the womb. God allows conception.





the scripture acknowleges that some babies do not come to full term.
1.Job 3:16
Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light. Job 3:15-17 (in Context) Job 3 (Whole Chapter)
2.Psalm 58:8
As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun. Psalm 58:7-9 (in Context) Psalm 58 (Whole Chapter)
3.Ecclesiastes 6:3
If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.
Ecclesiastes 6:2-4 (in Context) Ecclesiastes 6 (Whole Chapter)


God who allows conception to begin with ,also ordains our days as part of the secret things of Deut29. He knows our frame;


Jesus is with us in the midst of every difficult time in our life.

I heard in a sermon, that John Calvin had a 9 yr old daughter who died. After grieving her death ....he said he would have it no other way!
He had such trust in God's goodness that while death is unnatural he knew God has a purpose for everything that happens in time. He would never think to sin by questioning God's motives ..even in his grief.

Thanks, I'll read all the above. I agree with Calvin or I other words Who are we to judge the Potter. Abraham did the same. Knowing God had made him a promise he knew God would bring it about even if he had to raise Isaac from the dead. He believed God.

I'll go ahead and say I say he believed because he was a sheep of God not that he became a sheep after believing.

Once again thanks.

 

[Winman]

Thanks, I'll read all the above. I agree with Calvin or I other words Who are we to judge the Potter. Abraham did the same. Knowing God had made him a promise he knew God would bring it about even if he had to raise Isaac from the dead. He believed God.

I'll go ahead and say I say he believed because he was a sheep of God not that he became a sheep after believing.

Once again thanks.

Calvinists love to quote "the potter" from Romans 9, but never go to the OT to see what Paul was speaking of.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Note verse 6, this is what Paul was quoting in Romans 9. Those Jews who heard him understood this.

This passage is speaking of the NATION of Israel (as was Paul in Romans 9). God is not saying he chose from the foundation of the world to save some and pass by others.

Notice in verses 7-8 that God says if a NATION turns from it's evil, he will repent of the evil he thought to do unto them.

Notice verses 9-10, God says when he speaks to build a NATION and plant it, if they do evil he will repent of the good that he had spoken concerning them.

So, this building up and planting of a nation is not unconditional. It is based upon whether a nation obeys or rebels against God.

This is what Paul was speaking of in Romans 9. Moses obeyed God, and so God built him up (and Israel). Pharaoh rebelled against God and so God pulled him (and Egypt) down.

You need to study the OT to understand the NT.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinists love to quote "the potter" from Romans 9, but never go to the OT to see what Paul was speaking of.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

Note verse 6, this is what Paul was quoting in Romans 9. Those Jews who heard him understood this.

This passage is speaking of the NATION of Israel (as was Paul in Romans 9). God is not saying he chose from the foundation of the world to save some and pass by others.

Notice in verses 7-8 that God says if a NATION turns from it's evil, he will repent of the evil he thought to do unto them.

Notice verses 9-10, God says when he speaks to build a NATION and plant it, if they do evil he will repent of the good that he had spoken concerning them.

So, this building up and planting of a nation is not unconditional. It is based upon whether a nation obeys or rebels against God.

This is what Paul was speaking of in Romans 9. Moses obeyed God, and so God built him up (and Israel). Pharaoh rebelled against God and so God pulled him (and Egypt) down.

...

Another false statement......

Paul uses the Ot to prove individual election not only of Israelites...but of the Gentiles....they come in one at a time....
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.