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tragic_pizza
New Member
Irrelevent! Finding,(placing) the blame gives the starting point to start the control process.
Is that not one of the first steps to control ANY epidemic outbreak? Find the source and squash the spread.
Don't attempt to make me feel guilty just because someone else is having to pay for his sins; and don't equate a demand for responsibility with lack of compassion! </font>[/QUOTE]That's horse hooey. Placing blame is placing blame, and nothing mroe.
The whole Aids thing is horriable. It hhs killed millions. Many people have lost their lives thru this disease. It is a plaque that is encompossing the Earth. Many more will die before and if a cure is ever found.
As Christians many times some want to place varying degrees on sin. The penalty for all sin is death. That is why Jesus took our punishment on the cross. We need to realize these folks are no worse than we where before we had an encounter with our Saviour.
In the early 80's the church was very hostile towards the gay community. We did not do a good job of outreach. They were driven away instead of pulled in. We are quick to condem and slow to show mercy and grace. We do things backwards many time. We need to realize not everyone knows who Jesus is!!!
I worked with a guy one time. I talked about some general Bible stuff and he did not have a clue what I was talking about. So, I explained to him about Jesus. This took place over about a month. I about him ready to hook and a guy told him he was going to hell. I lost that guy that night. We stayed friends but he always rememered what was said.
We gotta show His love!!! and not our attitudes.
As Christians many times some want to place varying degrees on sin. The penalty for all sin is death. That is why Jesus took our punishment on the cross. We need to realize these folks are no worse than we where before we had an encounter with our Saviour.
In the early 80's the church was very hostile towards the gay community. We did not do a good job of outreach. They were driven away instead of pulled in. We are quick to condem and slow to show mercy and grace. We do things backwards many time. We need to realize not everyone knows who Jesus is!!!
I worked with a guy one time. I talked about some general Bible stuff and he did not have a clue what I was talking about. So, I explained to him about Jesus. This took place over about a month. I about him ready to hook and a guy told him he was going to hell. I lost that guy that night. We stayed friends but he always rememered what was said.
We gotta show His love!!! and not our attitudes.
tragic_pizza
New Member
You speak the truth, patrick. I can't tell you how many teenagers I know who have been forever turned off of Chfistianity because their only exposure to it has been jusgementalism and the "you're going to Hell" talk.
tragic_pizza
New Member
Yes, quite honestly, it is. I, for one, do not look forward to answering for the times I have done nothing, and have used some bigoted or hateful comment as an excuse to do nothing.
I wish for a world where people didn't consider it their Christian duty to place blame, ostracize, belittle, condemn, ignore, or hate in Jesus' name.
To this end, some of the posts in this and other threads simply depress me. We Christians have so much potential - we are, after all, ambassadors for the risen Christ, given authority to fogive sins, heals the sick, and preach salvation to the world - yet we waste our time sniping at one another and producing long threads where we discuss who is going to Hell "worse" than others.
tragic_pizza
New Member
Not according to Scripture, it isn't.
The wages of sin is death, right? Thus the personal results for any sin at all are the same.
The corporate results of sin are most telling, though. Adultery has a grave potential to destroy both participants spiritually, to destroy at least one marriage, to destroy the lives and futures of children of involved parents, and to destroy ministries and careers, among other things. Covetousness destroys the individual's relationship with God, because the item coveted becomes god. It has the potential to destroy families and homes as well, and can do untold damage if carried to its most extreme end - theft, blackmail, murder. Not honoring one's parents destroys the individual's relationship with God through the destruction of our Earthly example of that relationship. Families are torn apart, children grow up with a twisted idea of what love is (and thus what God's love is)... the list can go on ad infinitum.
Calling one "pet sin" worse than others is convenient... and ignorant.
Truer words have yet to be posted anywhere on this board.
T
TexasSky
Guest
To those of you who are upset about the statement that says "we did nothing," - why does that hit a nerve with you?
Not to sound conceited here, but the fact is, hour for hour, penny for penny, word for word, I will be surprised to find a single member of this board who did more to try to stop the acceptance of homosexuality by our society. Yet, I count myself in that "collective we."
The fact is, if everyone who professes to be a Christian did the things that Christ told us to do - like teaching others about Him, helping others, loving even our enemies, and standing up and saying "Wrong is wrong," - a LOT of problems in this world would not be nearly as bad as they are today, but - WE - the people who profess to be Christians, as a group by and large, - DON'T.
If we did, our churches would be filled to over flowing and our biggest problem would be where to put all the believers.
Look at what Paul did. That was ONE MAN fired up for God.
What would the world be like if every Christian had the fire, the determination, the spirit to serve God that Paul had?
I don't blame the gays for AIDS.
I blame the apathetic Christians who watched from the amen pew while the world grew worse and worse around them.
Today's children are more ashamed of saying they disapprove of homosexuality than they are of saying they are drug abusers. That is societies fault, and if the majority of Americans profess to be Christians, then it is OUR fault as Christians because we let it happen.
Its time we stopped finger pointing and started DOING.
I think Diane is a bit too harsh on the gays, but God bless her, she is speaking up and trying. That's more than most Christians do outside of the comfort zones of their homes and churches.
If you were in an office and the topic came up would you speak up adamently? Or would you mutter under your breath, duck your head and walk away because you don't want to offend your secular coworkers?
Where I worked I was TOLD to put up signs saying it was "safe to come out" to me. I calmly said, "I'm sorry. I disagree. I respect your right to make your own sexual choices, but I have religious convictions against it, and I no more want to know that you are having homosexual sex than I want to know that the guy next door is committing adultry."
I was almost fired over it too.
I participated in the election system, and in my state it is STILL illegal to commit sodomy because Christians participated in the process.
The fact is, if we did more to win souls to Christ, we wouldn't have to pass legislation about morality. We don't.
We make excuses:
"I'm not good enough." Neither was Moses or Job or Paul - they answered the call anyway.
"No one likes me." They hated Christ, John the Baptist, Peter and Paul.
"I can't afford to lose my job." Could Paul afford what it cost him?
"I vote." That's good. Do you witness?
Did you spend even 1/2 as much time this week telling an unsaved person about Jesus Christ as you've spent on this board talking about homosexuality?
Since I work in a place where gays are encouraged to out, I know several. Some, believe it or not, are non-practicing-gays who are non-practicing because they have accepted Christ. They often ask for prayer to help them overcome temptation. They often speak of urges they don't understand, and need help dealing with. They have chosen a life of celibacy over a life of homosexuality, but they say the desires are there, just as a heterosexual's desire for pornography or adultry is there.
I don't understand it.
I DO understand that these are not people who want to displease God, they are not people who want to spread disease, they are not even people who really WANT to engage in homosexual sex. They WANT to be like their fathers and brothers. They WANT to want what the majority of the world wants. They want to not be hated and blamed.
I don't tell them, "Well, you can't help your urges. God will understand. Its okay."
Do I think we need a Sunday School dedicated to them? No. We don't dedicate sunday school classes to adultry or pedophilia or even "the missionary position of sex between married couples."
Do I think school children should be taught it is a "normal" and "safe" lifestyle? I don't believe in lying to children, and even homosexuals admit it is NOT normal OR safe.
That still doesn't mean I think it justifies Christian hatred. Christ taught us to reach out to the sinner in love, and to treat the sin with hate. I hate the sin, and I'm strong about that. I don't hate the sinner.
I DO tell them, "Keep talking to God, keep praying, keep trying your best. God promises that He will not give you more than you can bear, and that if you have faith you can move mountains. God will move this mountain in your life if you have faith."
Not to sound conceited here, but the fact is, hour for hour, penny for penny, word for word, I will be surprised to find a single member of this board who did more to try to stop the acceptance of homosexuality by our society. Yet, I count myself in that "collective we."
The fact is, if everyone who professes to be a Christian did the things that Christ told us to do - like teaching others about Him, helping others, loving even our enemies, and standing up and saying "Wrong is wrong," - a LOT of problems in this world would not be nearly as bad as they are today, but - WE - the people who profess to be Christians, as a group by and large, - DON'T.
If we did, our churches would be filled to over flowing and our biggest problem would be where to put all the believers.
Look at what Paul did. That was ONE MAN fired up for God.
What would the world be like if every Christian had the fire, the determination, the spirit to serve God that Paul had?
I don't blame the gays for AIDS.
I blame the apathetic Christians who watched from the amen pew while the world grew worse and worse around them.
Today's children are more ashamed of saying they disapprove of homosexuality than they are of saying they are drug abusers. That is societies fault, and if the majority of Americans profess to be Christians, then it is OUR fault as Christians because we let it happen.
Its time we stopped finger pointing and started DOING.
I think Diane is a bit too harsh on the gays, but God bless her, she is speaking up and trying. That's more than most Christians do outside of the comfort zones of their homes and churches.
If you were in an office and the topic came up would you speak up adamently? Or would you mutter under your breath, duck your head and walk away because you don't want to offend your secular coworkers?
Where I worked I was TOLD to put up signs saying it was "safe to come out" to me. I calmly said, "I'm sorry. I disagree. I respect your right to make your own sexual choices, but I have religious convictions against it, and I no more want to know that you are having homosexual sex than I want to know that the guy next door is committing adultry."
I was almost fired over it too.
I participated in the election system, and in my state it is STILL illegal to commit sodomy because Christians participated in the process.
The fact is, if we did more to win souls to Christ, we wouldn't have to pass legislation about morality. We don't.
We make excuses:
"I'm not good enough." Neither was Moses or Job or Paul - they answered the call anyway.
"No one likes me." They hated Christ, John the Baptist, Peter and Paul.
"I can't afford to lose my job." Could Paul afford what it cost him?
"I vote." That's good. Do you witness?
Did you spend even 1/2 as much time this week telling an unsaved person about Jesus Christ as you've spent on this board talking about homosexuality?
Since I work in a place where gays are encouraged to out, I know several. Some, believe it or not, are non-practicing-gays who are non-practicing because they have accepted Christ. They often ask for prayer to help them overcome temptation. They often speak of urges they don't understand, and need help dealing with. They have chosen a life of celibacy over a life of homosexuality, but they say the desires are there, just as a heterosexual's desire for pornography or adultry is there.
I don't understand it.
I DO understand that these are not people who want to displease God, they are not people who want to spread disease, they are not even people who really WANT to engage in homosexual sex. They WANT to be like their fathers and brothers. They WANT to want what the majority of the world wants. They want to not be hated and blamed.
I don't tell them, "Well, you can't help your urges. God will understand. Its okay."
Do I think we need a Sunday School dedicated to them? No. We don't dedicate sunday school classes to adultry or pedophilia or even "the missionary position of sex between married couples."
Do I think school children should be taught it is a "normal" and "safe" lifestyle? I don't believe in lying to children, and even homosexuals admit it is NOT normal OR safe.
That still doesn't mean I think it justifies Christian hatred. Christ taught us to reach out to the sinner in love, and to treat the sin with hate. I hate the sin, and I'm strong about that. I don't hate the sinner.
I DO tell them, "Keep talking to God, keep praying, keep trying your best. God promises that He will not give you more than you can bear, and that if you have faith you can move mountains. God will move this mountain in your life if you have faith."
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
1. You make too many assumptions without any basis in truth or evidence. You have no idea what I or anyone else have done to witness to homosexuals and others. You speak out of much ignorance.
2. As to your theory that if we were doing our job, then the world would be a better place, that is certainly not the case. Do you believe Noah did his job? Why did the world end up being destroyed then? Did he not warn them? How about Micah, Amos, Isaiah, and all the prophets? Did they not do their job? At some point, you need to stop condemning the messenger, and recognize that people's sin and rebellion is what led to their destruction, despite the warnings of the Church. Despite the warnings of Noah, the law, and all the prophets. As the rich man in Jesus' parable who was in Hell was told when he begged the Lord to send an angel to convince his brothers of their need for salvation, they have the law and the prophets, let them listen to them. If they don't, then even if an angel were to appear to them, they still wouldn't believe. The point is that just because the world is evil and getting worse does not mean that the Church is not doing its job. Your logic doesn't work here.
Joseph Botwinick
2. As to your theory that if we were doing our job, then the world would be a better place, that is certainly not the case. Do you believe Noah did his job? Why did the world end up being destroyed then? Did he not warn them? How about Micah, Amos, Isaiah, and all the prophets? Did they not do their job? At some point, you need to stop condemning the messenger, and recognize that people's sin and rebellion is what led to their destruction, despite the warnings of the Church. Despite the warnings of Noah, the law, and all the prophets. As the rich man in Jesus' parable who was in Hell was told when he begged the Lord to send an angel to convince his brothers of their need for salvation, they have the law and the prophets, let them listen to them. If they don't, then even if an angel were to appear to them, they still wouldn't believe. The point is that just because the world is evil and getting worse does not mean that the Church is not doing its job. Your logic doesn't work here.
Joseph Botwinick
tragic_pizza
New Member
"Stop condemning?" Joseph, what a wonderful idea! Let's all try that for an hour, mmmk?
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
TP,
Do you have anything to add to the topic of this thread, or do you merely want to make snide and rude remarks toward me?
Joseph Botwinick
Do you have anything to add to the topic of this thread, or do you merely want to make snide and rude remarks toward me?
Joseph Botwinick
http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/id321.htm
Also, on the "gay sex worse than other sins" idea, I believe Lot offered his daughters up for sexual sacrifice, and begged them not to touch the men that were in his house, so it would appear that homosexuality is a worse sin.
Also, on the "gay sex worse than other sins" idea, I believe Lot offered his daughters up for sexual sacrifice, and begged them not to touch the men that were in his house, so it would appear that homosexuality is a worse sin.
tragic_pizza
New Member
I'm merely observing how many of us are quick to condemn others whose sins are "worse" than ours. If you decide to think this is a personal attack, I can't stop you from feeling so, even though it wasn't.
The world has always been against God. Joe when was the last time you shared your faith? People are still recieving the Word but we must be bold. The world only sees a church that is condeming them. We need to love the sinner. We need to show them the changing power of Christ the King of kings.
When the church started to dive into politics and quit focusing on the lost we missed the mark. The Bible teaches us God's word will not return void!!!! We can make exscuses are we can go to battle.
The church in America is dying on the branch. You look at outreach #'s and it is scary how many people don't care. I see it every day, people just do not have a burden for the lost. It is easier to say everything is their fault than to build a relationship and share the Good News.
Sin is sin and God sees it all the same. It seperates from God. We must be willing to go out and share of the wonderful reconciling love of the Saviour and quit sitting in our judgement seats.
When the church started to dive into politics and quit focusing on the lost we missed the mark. The Bible teaches us God's word will not return void!!!! We can make exscuses are we can go to battle.
The church in America is dying on the branch. You look at outreach #'s and it is scary how many people don't care. I see it every day, people just do not have a burden for the lost. It is easier to say everything is their fault than to build a relationship and share the Good News.
Sin is sin and God sees it all the same. It seperates from God. We must be willing to go out and share of the wonderful reconciling love of the Saviour and quit sitting in our judgement seats.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Thank you for asking, Patrick. I share my faith every week. Further, God has used me to lead at least one homosexual to the Lord and out of his evil lifestyle.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Patrick,
To whom is your post directed to? I have not addressed anyhting about degrees of sin, so I find it hard to think it is directed toward me. Have you read the whole thread? If not, may I please reccomend that you do so as I think it is quite interesting?
Joseph Botwinick
To whom is your post directed to? I have not addressed anyhting about degrees of sin, so I find it hard to think it is directed toward me. Have you read the whole thread? If not, may I please reccomend that you do so as I think it is quite interesting?
Joseph Botwinick
Yeah. Given Genesis 19, I guess it's a pretty cryptic book, and nobody is sure what it's really saying.....
Why didn't Lot offer one of his servants, if that's the case ?