AIDS and Romans 1:24-32

[patrick]

Yes, I have read it Joseph. You used the prhase "evil lifestyle". is not all sin evil to God? That was all I asked.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by patrick:
Yes, I have read it Joseph. You used the prhase "evil lifestyle". is not all sin evil to God? That was all I asked.

You are correct that all sin is evil to God. However, in these cases, God used me to witness to homosexuals and lead them out of their evil lifestyles. Do you believe homosexuality is an evil lifestyle?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[AVL1984]

You can ask questions, but you just don't seem to like to answer them, now, do you, Bro. Curtis. I never said the book was cryptic...I think it's plain and simple. He offered what was right there. Now...answer the questions Joseph asked you.

 

[patrick]

I believe all sin is evil. It tears one down spritiualy. We have to understand that we must not condone sin yet have mercy for the sinner.

Many times people have equated the sin to the person. No where in scripture does it tell us to do that. We must show the love Christ when dealing with the lost. Judgement will come when they die.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by patrick:
Many times people have equated the sin to the person.

Please quote me where I said anything like this. I do not condone hatred for other people. I hate the sin, but love the sinner.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[TexasSky]

Joseph,

I know we often disagree, but I've actually thought you were showing a Christian attitude about this. You have stood firm against the sin, but not against the person.

 

[TexasSky]

Now, about the assumption -
I'm not assuming anything. I'm looking at statistical data.

33% of the world's population professes to be Christian. 2.5 billion people profess to be Christian.

27% of the world hasn't even been witnessed to. That means 1.68 BILLION people have NEVER EVEN HEARD THE STORY OF CHRIST.

The US population is approximately 280,000,000.

In the United States 3 out of 4 adults say they are Christian.

There are approximately 600,000 admitted gays living in the US.

This means 2 things. 1) Asignificant number of gays are professing to be Christian. 2) A small number of people in the US are Gay (less than 1% of the total population) - YET - they changed the law to actually ENCOURAGE homosexuality.

How did they do that?
If Christians are voting.
If Christians are participating.
How did 1% of the population, in a country where the MAJORITY of the population professes to be Christian - get those laws passed if we were doing our job?

 

[TexasSky]

Regarding Noah - He was surrounded by non believers.

We are surrounded by people who say they are believers.

And something else. -

Early Christians started out in the miniority. 12 of them - and they changed the world.

We have BILLIONS professing Christ, and yet. .. we are one of the slowest growing faiths in the world today.

 

[AVL1984]

TexasSky..Christians can vote all they like, but they will be overridden by liberal judges, etc. This doesn't mean they're not doing their job...

 

[Gold Dragon]

Directly or indirectly, disease is a result of sin.

People believed this in Jesus' day and I still believe it now. With that truth, what should our attitude be towards disease and its victims? Here how Jesus approaches someone people believed was sick because of their sin.

NASB - Matthew 9:2-8

And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed.

Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."

And some of the scribes said to themselves, "This fellow blasphemes."

And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, "Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Get up, and walk'? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."

And he got up and went home. But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

 

[TexasSky]

AVL -

Actually, it DOES.

Answer me honestly:

How many people in this room have:

Voted in a precinct election
Attended a precinct caucus
Served as delegate to county, state or national convention
Served on a committee to write a party platform
Worked on a campaign for a Christian running for election
Sent money to a Christan campaigning for election
Actually contacted an elected official, in a written format, to express a view on a Christian issue.
Written a newspaper or phoned into a talk show to express a Christian view on a Chritian issue.

PERSONALLY: As in one-on-one, WITNESSED TO A NONBELIEVING SINNER ABOUT ACCEPTING CHRIST.

Personally, in a loving manner, talked to a believing sinner about how to turn away a sin in their life?

Federal Judges are appointed by President, and approved by the legislature.

If you have a liberal judge up there, he was appointed by someone the public elected.

I have a very conservative Christian for a US Federal Judge. He is a relative. He was appointed by Ronald Reagan.

He is up there because the people in this community voted for a Christian as our Senator, Congressman and President.

He was going to retire, but didn't. One reason he didn't retire is because right now a liberal serves in our Congress and our Senate, and he didn't want a liberal to get his seat.

 

[Bethelassoc]

This argument brings to mind the movie, "And the Band Played On", which is based on the book by the same name.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Now, about the assumption -
I'm not assuming anything. I'm looking at statistical data.

33% of the world's population professes to be Christian. 2.5 billion people profess to be Christian.

27% of the world hasn't even been witnessed to. That means 1.68 BILLION people have NEVER EVEN HEARD THE STORY OF CHRIST.

These are interesting statistics. But, where do you get them and do they tell the whole story? For example, we do know that there are places in the world where the Church is operated in the underground due to religious persecution. Is it possible that those numbers do not include what is happening underground?

The US population is approximately 280,000,000.

In the United States 3 out of 4 adults say they are Christian.

There are approximately 600,000 admitted gays living in the US.

This means 2 things. 1) Asignificant number of gays are professing to be Christian. [/QUOTE]

There is actually some truth in this statement. But, I promise you it isn't because Southern Baptists haven't taken a strong stance against this. As a matter of fact, besides innerancy and women in ministry, I would say that this is one of the major issues which led to a split in the SBC causing many liberal churches to go off and create the CBF and Alliance of Baptists.

2) A small number of people in the US are Gay (less than 1% of the total population) - YET - they changed the law to actually ENCOURAGE homosexuality.

How did they do that?
If Christians are voting.
If Christians are participating.
How did 1% of the population, in a country where the MAJORITY of the population professes to be Christian - get those laws passed if we were doing our job? [/QUOTE]

These are good questions. Perhaps, scripture has some answers for us on this matter:

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Matthew 7:13-14; 21-23

I know this isn't a pleasant thought, but perhaps many of those who claim Christianity are decieved by the false teachings they have been fed, that are abounding in many so-called Christian churces today.

What a shame.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[AVL1984]

Again, TexasSky, just because everyone doesn't do all those things listed doesn't mean they aren't doing their job. The Bible tells us to pray, stand fast and preach the gospel. God is the one who sets up and takes down...not us. We may assist in some puny way. Your reasoning is unrealistic and circular. Not EVERYONE COULD do all those things.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Regarding Noah - He was surrounded by non believers.

We are surrounded by people who say they are believers.

And something else. -

Early Christians started out in the miniority. 12 of them - and they changed the world.

We have BILLIONS professing Christ, and yet. .. we are one of the slowest growing faiths in the world today.

1. You assume that Noah was not surrounded by people who thought they were religious. I am not sure that is true. Also consider the prophets and Apostles as well. Their audience with the Jewish Leaders was certainly not a group of people who didn't think they were Godly.

2. Perhaps, we have billions of decieved religious people and not true Christians. What say you?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[TexasSky]

Okay,

I concede point one.

And I've been screaming about point two for days now, but no one is listening.

The majority of the non-believers who need to be saved are already inside the churches.

 

[AVL1984]

Actually, TexasSky...they didn't change the law. The liberal judges changed the law not to encourage homosexuality, but to have it accepted as an alternative lifestyle. This is what you get when you have liberal judges not interpreting the law, but legislating it from the bench.

 

[AVL1984]

This thread has gone way off course....

 

[tamborine lady]

The majority of the non-believers who need to be saved are already inside the churches.

Amen Texas Sky!!! And they think they are already saved.
But I thought everybody knew that!!

Tam

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I think point two goes back to the passage in the Bible that says:

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it .

Pay particular attention to the last part of the passage, and I think you will understand where I am going with this. This is part of the reason I don't think you can necessarily blame the lack of salvation in the world on the Church. But, alas, we may find ourselves agreeing to disagree about this.

Joseph Botwinick