AIDS and Romans 1:24-32

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
If I were a sovereign God, I am sure I could come up with some very clever answer to how I don't have any human limitations like you do. But I am not. You do believe that God is sovereign, and can accomplish his will with or without you, don't you?

Joseph Botwinick

God's clever answer was here.

NASB - Matthew 28:18-20

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

</font>[/QUOTE]You will note that nowhere in this passage does Jesus say he couldn't do it without me or you, or anyone for that matter. It is by his grace and mercy that we are called to be his servants.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I will leave the how of Plan B to the soveriegn God, because he knows better than me what is possible, and certainly doesn't need me to carry it out for him. It is by his sovereign grace and mercy that he has given me the honor and obligation to proclaim his salvation to the lost world, not by necessity.

That doesn't address my points in the least.

You are in effect saying that you can treat people any old way you want to, and if it turns them off to the message of salvation, it's their fault.

Show me this interesting theological insight in Scripture, please. </font>[/QUOTE]I have said no such thing. You either misunderstand or have purposely distorted my words. I merely am saying that:

1. God is sovereign. We need him. He does not need us.

2. God, through his grace and mercy, not out of necessity, has chosen me to be his servant and to proclaim salvation to the lost.

3. I cannot, as a human who is not sovereign, thwart the will of the sovereign God.

4. True Christians will be obedient to the will of God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[tragic_pizza]

You've merely restated what you said before, Joseph, which was that whatever we act like, God will save the people He wants to save. This is, as I understand Scripture, not a Biblical view of Christian witness.

I was not distorting your words, I was mirroring back what I understand your position to be. This position is not clarified by numerical listing.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

You either misunderstood my words, or you are blatantly distorting what I said. I will not repeat the truth again. If you don't accept the truth, that is on you. I pray that God will open your eyes and help you to see the truth.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
You either misunderstood my words, or you are blatantly distorting what I said. I will not repeat the truth again. If you don't accept the truth, that is on you. I pray that God will open your eyes and help you to see the truth.

Are you speaking ex cathedra here?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Our authority for teaching is the Word of God. Baptists have no pope and have no need of one. So no, I am not. I am clarifying the distortions of my statements.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[tragic_pizza]

Again, I do not see that I distorted your words, and invoking God as the justification for your words doesn't help clear up any misunderstanding I might have.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Our authority for teaching is the Word of God. Baptists have no pope and have no need of one. So no, I am not. I am clarifying the distortions of my statements.

Joseph Botwinick

Then maybe you should be quoting the bible.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

You did distort my words by adding your own subjective interpretation to what I said. I never once said that Christians can treat the lost in any manner they wish, and you know it. As a matter of fact, I said:

4. True Christians will be obedient to the will of God.

Just so there is no confusion, True Christians who are obedient to the will of God will not teach and live a life of hate and abuse. They will be people of the Word, who teach the Word of God, and live a life of love. At the same time, you also need to understand that God's will is not subject to our will. God does not need us to accomplish his will, but by his grace and mercy, chose us to be his servants.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
God does not need us to accomplish his will, but by his grace and mercy, chose us to be his servants.

This was my point, Joseph. God can do whatever He wants, but He chooses to work through us.

SO...

We, though unfaithfulness, can and all too often do prevent people from coming to Christ. This is not their fault, it certainly isn't God's fault, it is our fault.

I do not understand why something we obviously agree on has to be a point of contention.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
God does not need us to accomplish his will, but by his grace and mercy, chose us to be his servants.

This was my point, Joseph. God can do whatever He wants, but He chooses to work through us.

SO...

We, though unfaithfulness, can and all too often do prevent people from coming to Christ. This is not their fault, it certainly isn't God's fault, it is our fault.

I do not understand why something we obviously agree on has to be a point of contention. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that God does not need us and that we cannot thwart God's will. If it is God's will for a person to be saved, he will accomplish it, with or without us.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I agree that God does not need us and that we cannot thwart God's will. If it is God's will for a person to be saved, he will accomplish it, with or without us.

While that may be true, it isn't a justification for us to do nothing.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
God does not need us to accomplish his will, but by his grace and mercy, chose us to be his servants.

This was my point, Joseph. God can do whatever He wants, but He chooses to work through us.

SO...

We, though unfaithfulness, can and all too often do prevent people from coming to Christ. This is not their fault, it certainly isn't God's fault, it is our fault.

I do not understand why something we obviously agree on has to be a point of contention. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that God does not need us and that we cannot thwart God's will. If it is God's will for a person to be saved, he will accomplish it, with or without us.</font>[/QUOTE]So we're back to "it doesn't matter how I act or what I do, God will save them and if He doesn't it's their fault." Please, if this is a "distorion," tell me at ehat specific point I am "distorting."

We are specifically charged with the task of acting like Christ, loving like Christ, having families like the Church in order to bring people into the Kingdom.

Can you see how your position seems to be at odds with these Biblical facts?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Dragon,

I never said it was.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Dragon,

I never said it was.

Joseph Botwinick

It also isn't a justification for us to do something that will hinder someone from coming to Christ.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
God does not need us to accomplish his will, but by his grace and mercy, chose us to be his servants.

This was my point, Joseph. God can do whatever He wants, but He chooses to work through us.

SO...

We, though unfaithfulness, can and all too often do prevent people from coming to Christ. This is not their fault, it certainly isn't God's fault, it is our fault.

I do not understand why something we obviously agree on has to be a point of contention. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that God does not need us and that we cannot thwart God's will. If it is God's will for a person to be saved, he will accomplish it, with or without us.</font>[/QUOTE]So we're back to "it doesn't matter how I act or what I do, God will save them and if He doesn't it's their fault." Please, if this is a "distorion," tell me at ehat specific point I am "distorting."

We are specifically charged with the task of acting like Christ, loving like Christ, having families like the Church in order to bring people into the Kingdom.

Can you see how your position seems to be at odds with these Biblical facts? </font>[/QUOTE]My position does not in any way go against what the Bible teaches. On the one hand, true Christians will be obedient to the will of God which is for us to preach the Word and show the love of God to others. On the other hand, this is not because God needs us to do this, or can't accomplish his will without us, but because, in his grace and mercy, has chosen us to do so. Those who reject Christ, do so because of their hard hearts and their sins. They are resposible.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
God does not need us to accomplish his will, but by his grace and mercy, chose us to be his servants.

This was my point, Joseph. God can do whatever He wants, but He chooses to work through us.

SO...

We, though unfaithfulness, can and all too often do prevent people from coming to Christ. This is not their fault, it certainly isn't God's fault, it is our fault.

I do not understand why something we obviously agree on has to be a point of contention. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that God does not need us and that we cannot thwart God's will. If it is God's will for a person to be saved, he will accomplish it, with or without us.</font>[/QUOTE]So we're back to "it doesn't matter how I act or what I do, God will save them and if He doesn't it's their fault." Please, if this is a "distorion," tell me at ehat specific point I am "distorting."

We are specifically charged with the task of acting like Christ, loving like Christ, having families like the Church in order to bring people into the Kingdom.

Can you see how your position seems to be at odds with these Biblical facts? </font>[/QUOTE]My position does not in any way go against what the Bible teaches. On the one hand, true Christians will be obedient to the will of God which is for us to preach the Word and show the love of God to others. On the other hand, this is not because God needs us to do this, or can't accomplish his will without us, but because, in his grace and mercy, has chosen us to do so. Those who reject Christ, do so because of their hard hearts and their sins. They are resposible.</font>[/QUOTE]I cannot understand how they are responsible for our unfaithfulnerss.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Dragon,

I never said it was.

Joseph Botwinick

It also isn't a justification for us to do something that will hinder someone from coming to Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]I never said that either. I did say that God's will cannot be thwarted by man. Man can try, but they will fail, and be held accountable for their sin and rebellion to God. They cannot, however, cause a person not to be saved, if it is God's will for that lost person to be saved. Otherwise, they would be thwarting the will of the Sovereign and Almighty God, and none of us have that much power.

Joseph Botwinick

Joseph Botwinick

 

[tragic_pizza]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Dragon,

I never said it was.

Joseph Botwinick

It also isn't a justification for us to do something that will hinder someone from coming to Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]I never said that either. I did say that God's will cannot be thwarted by man. Man can try, but they will fail, and be held accountable for their sin and rebellion to God. They cannot, however, cause a person not to be saved, if it is God's will for that lost person to be saved. Otherwise, they would be thwarting the will of the Sovereign and Almighty God, and none of us have that much power. </font>[/QUOTE]"How will they hear without a preacher?"

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Dragon,

I never said it was.

Joseph Botwinick

It also isn't a justification for us to do something that will hinder someone from coming to Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]I never said that either. I did say that God's will cannot be thwarted by man. Man can try, but they will fail, and be held accountable for their sin and rebellion to God. They cannot, however, cause a person not to be saved, if it is God's will for that lost person to be saved. Otherwise, they would be thwarting the will of the Sovereign and Almighty God, and none of us have that much power. </font>[/QUOTE]"How will they hear without a preacher?" </font>[/QUOTE]

20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Romans 1:20

If we are in a situation like America where there are Bibles and Christians, God will provide a preacher, whether it be you or me or someone else. God will make a way.

Joseph Botwinick