AIDS and Romans 1:24-32

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I never said that either. I did say that God's will cannot be thwarted by man. Man can try, but they will fail, and be held accountable for their sin and rebellion to God. They cannot, however, cause a person not to be saved, if it is God's will for that lost person to be saved. Otherwise, they would be thwarting the will of the Sovereign and Almighty God, and none of us have that much power.

I agree. But since I have no idea what God's plans are for any individual person, I will be obedient to Christ's words regarding ministering to all people with the hope that I can be a part of God's sovereign work in that person if that is His sovereign will.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I never said that either. I did say that God's will cannot be thwarted by man. Man can try, but they will fail, and be held accountable for their sin and rebellion to God. They cannot, however, cause a person not to be saved, if it is God's will for that lost person to be saved. Otherwise, they would be thwarting the will of the Sovereign and Almighty God, and none of us have that much power.

I agree. But since I have no idea what God's plans are for any individual person, I will be obedient to Christ's words regarding ministering to all people with the hope that I can be a part of God's sovereign work in that person if that is His sovereign will. </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly!

Joseph Botwinick

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by Bethelassoc:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yes, it was mentioned by me earlier in this thread.

Thanks AVL1984. I didn't see it since there's alot to try to sort out, on and off topic. </font>[/QUOTE]No problem. I truly wish it would get back on topic, but, you know some people...LOL

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Exactly!

Shalom Joseph.

When we use words that others will understand so that you don't appear to conflict when in actuality you agree we will go along ways towards Shalom.

 

[patrick]

God's will is for us to share the gospel with a lost and dying world. God's will for us is to mirror the love of Christ in lives. God will is for us to judge not. God's will is for us to go and love the unloveable!!!!!!!!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by patrick:
God's will is for us to share the gospel with a lost and dying world. God's will for us is to mirror the love of Christ in lives. God will is for us to judge not. God's will is for us to go and love the unloveable!!!!!!!!

Amen to everything you just said with this caveat:

God's will is for us not to judge hypocritically, or in ignorance. He does, however exhort us to test the fruit of the spirit and to have discernment:

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

1 John 4:1-6

Joseph Botwinick

 

[patrick]

Lost people have no fruits of the spirit. So, then how do we? WE love unconditionaly and share with them the hope that is within us.

 

[patrick]

We are not to judge that is reserved by God , Himself. Jesus went out of his way to love the unloveable. We just keep sharing and plant the seed.

Joe, it seems you have a hard time understanding that our job here on earth is simple. To glorify God and to show the world a glimpse of Christ in our lives. Our job is not to judge oneanother. Ii is to love. God does love the ones we as a church bash. "For God so loved".

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by patrick:
Lost people have no fruits of the spirit. So, then how do we? WE love unconditionaly and share with them the hope that is within us.

You are correct that they have no fruit of the spirit. That is why we mist discern those whom we listen to so that we are not decieved by false teachings. We must test the fruits. Of course we preach the Word and show the love of God to them. At the same time, we must also be careful not to be influenced by the wisdom of the world which appeals to the carnal, sinful nature, and is full of the spirit of Anti-Christ.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by patrick:
We are not to judge that is reserved by God , Himself.

The Bible tells us we are to test the fruits of the spirits and determine which are from God, and which are not. This requires discernment, and yes, even some judgment.

Jesus went out of his way to love the unloveable. We just keep sharing and plant the seed.[/QUOTE]

I agree. He did not, however, allow himself to be influenced or changed by the world. This is because he had discernment, which is what he calls us to have as well.

Joe, it seems you have a hard time understanding that our job here on earth is simple. To glorify God and to show the world a glimpse of Christ in our lives. Our job is not to judge oneanother. Ii is to love. God does love the ones we as a church bash. "For God so loved". [/QUOTE]

1. Our job is very simple: Preach the Word and show the love of God to the lost. I get that. Please quote me where I said otherwise.

2. We are told by the Bible to use discernment, and yes, even judge the fruits of the Spirit so that we are not decieved by false teachings and are not influenced by the wisdom of this world which appeals to the carnal nature and is full of the spirit of Anti-Christ.

3. Please quote me where I have bashed anyone. Or, stop judging me and making unfounded accusations.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[TexasSky]

TRUE STORY:

A young man became saved and began attending a church in our city. Young man was homosexual. Young man was trying to leave that life behind. Young man did a pretty good job of it. Stayed away from it for a long, long time. Despite that, he suffered the hatred and ridicule that is seen in this thread.

After awhile the man just seemed to vanish. Stopped talking about God. Stopped talking about the bible. So, a Christian coworker who cared said, "Hey, how are you? Would you like to join me in a bible study?"

The man responded, "Why? So a bunch of people who talk about love can tell me how much they hate me?"

SO, the coworker said, "What happened?"

The man said, "I found out that so-called-Christian love is just another word for gay-bashing. It doesn't matter to you people if someone has stopped sinning, or tried to stop sinning. You'll never let them forget. Never encourage them. You don't want me with men, but you sure as h*** don't want me with your daughters. You don't want me sitting next to you, and you don't think I deserve your prayers."

So - the coworker said, "I'm sorry you had that experience, that isn't Christ like at all."

The man said, "I know. That's why I follow Christ, but I'm not a Christian."

----

ANOTHER True Story:

A woman I work with was openly hostile to me for several days. I asked someone why, they said, "She saw all the bible stuff in your office." I said, "Is she athiest?" I was told, "No, she had a bad experience with religious people. She's gay." I said, "Oh."
I continued to be nice to her. When her partner became ill I said, "I'll say a prayer for her."
Her mouth fell open. "What did you say?"
I said, "I said I'll say a prayer for her."
She said, "Seriously?" I said, "Yeah, seriously." I over heard her later telling another coworker, "That's the first time a Christian ever cared about a gay enough to pray."

PEOPLE- How can you teach of the love of Christ when all you do is hate?

 

[patrick]

If you folllow Christ that won't happen. Joe you need to look close at the life of Christ. His actions are the ones I want mirror. He was forgiving and merciful.

Yes, lost people have a sinful nature. That is why we are called into the world and not to be of the world.

I have to know is long hair on a man a sin???

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
TRUE STORY:

A young man became saved and began attending a church in our city. Young man was homosexual. Young man was trying to leave that life behind. Young man did a pretty good job of it. Stayed away from it for a long, long time. Despite that, he suffered the hatred and ridicule that is seen in this thread.

After awhile the man just seemed to vanish. Stopped talking about God. Stopped talking about the bible. So, a Christian coworker who cared said, "Hey, how are you? Would you like to join me in a bible study?"

The man responded, "Why? So a bunch of people who talk about love can tell me how much they hate me?"

SO, the coworker said, "What happened?"

The man said, "I found out that so-called-Christian love is just another word for gay-bashing. It doesn't matter to you people if someone has stopped sinning, or tried to stop sinning. You'll never let them forget. Never encourage them. You don't want me with men, but you sure as h*** don't want me with your daughters. You don't want me sitting next to you, and you don't think I deserve your prayers."

So - the coworker said, "I'm sorry you had that experience, that isn't Christ like at all."

The man said, "I know. That's why I follow Christ, but I'm not a Christian."

----

ANOTHER True Story:

A woman I work with was openly hostile to me for several days. I asked someone why, they said, "She saw all the bible stuff in your office." I said, "Is she athiest?" I was told, "No, she had a bad experience with religious people. She's gay." I said, "Oh."
I continued to be nice to her. When her partner became ill I said, "I'll say a prayer for her."
Her mouth fell open. "What did you say?"
I said, "I said I'll say a prayer for her."
She said, "Seriously?" I said, "Yeah, seriously." I over heard her later telling another coworker, "That's the first time a Christian ever cared about a gay enough to pray."

PEOPLE- How can you teach of the love of Christ when all you do is hate?

I guess I can't relate to your story since I don't hate or teach hate.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[AVL1984]

TexasSky...can you show me where anyone has shown or taught hatred in this thread? I must have missed it. Also, what about ridicule? Please, pray tell, show us. As Dr. Bob has pointed out in several other threads, I do believe you're twisting things again and making unfounded accusations.

Thanks in advance...

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by patrick:
If you folllow Christ that won't happen.

And yet, the Bible teaches us to test the Spirits. I will follow what the Bible says to do.

Joe you need to look close at the life of Christ. His actions are the ones I want mirror. He was forgiving and merciful.[/QUOTE]

Me too. I wonder why you would imply otherwise about me. If you have evidence that I am unforgiving or without mercy, then please present it.

Yes, lost people have a sinful nature. That is why we are called into the world and not to be of the world.

I have to know is long hair on a man a sin??? [/QUOTE]

I don't know. What does the Bible say about it? What do you think? Why would you ask me such a silly question that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic? Are you trying to paint me in a negative light using some sort of stereotypical view of a legalist? Around here, we call that defamation, and it isn't very Godly.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[patrick]

Joe are you the whole church. We do,and you know it. You realyy love to sit in that judgement seat. I am not saying let the world influence us. I am saying not to act like jerks to the lost. Yes, without Christ they are going to hell, but we are called to seek and share with the lost.

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by patrick:
If you folllow Christ that won't happen. Joe you need to look close at the life of Christ. His actions are the ones I want mirror. He was forgiving and merciful.

Yes, lost people have a sinful nature. That is why we are called into the world and not to be of the world.

I have to know is long hair on a man a sin???

Patrick...if you really want to know if long hair on a man is sin (which is off this topic...as this whole thread has done) then why don't you start a new thread and quit hijacking this one. This is a request....Thanks.

You want to mirror Christs actions, Patrick? Well, you're only showing one side...Jesus had righteous indignation. He showed love, but he wasn't afraid to show his displeasure in a Godly way. The serant is no better than his master. God does indeed tell us to try the spirits to see if they are of God. He also tells us to show discernment and mark people who cause divisions. He also tells us to avoid foolish and unlearned questions. Should I continue?

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by patrick:
Joe are you the whole church. We do,and you know it. You realyy love to sit in that judgement seat. I am not saying let the world influence us. I am saying not to act like jerks to the lost. Yes, without Christ they are going to hell, but we are called to seek and share with the lost.

Can you show an instance where Joseph has acted like "jerks to the lost"? Or is this another one of your misinterpretations of what he's said? I haven't personally seen where he's acting like a jerk.

 

[patrick]

A question is defamation. Come on joe, isn't that being a little childish. Your words paint who you are Joe. Asking a simple question is UnGodly? Show me that in the Bible.


I really, wanted to know your mindset. That is a question that if you would not have dodged might have cleared it up. I think God looks at the heart and not the outward appearence of man. I can back that up.

Joe do think I am a liberal? Well, I am not. I just love Jesus and want to copy everthing he did. I want to love others the way he loved. I want to forgive as He forgave. I want to reach out the way He reached out. I want others to know the One who gave his life on a cross so they may have eternal life with Him.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Patrick,

You really are being very judgemental and unChristlike right now.

1. I am not the whole church. I am merely a part of the Church. I do believe that you are, however, addressing your comments towards me since it is you and I who are conversing.

2. "We do,and you know it". I am not quite sure I understand what you are trying to communicate here. Would you please clarify?

3. I love following the Word of God. If that means that I must use discernment, then yes, I love showing discernment. That means that I must even judge every now and then.

4. I don't guess I can relate to your message of not acting like a "jerk" to the lost, since I don't do that.

5. Correct. We are called to preach the Word and show the love of God to the lost. If you have evidence otherwise, why don't you share it with us, or stop trying to defame me. It is not a very Godly thing to do.

Joseph Botwinick