AIDS and Romans 1:24-32

Well, whose responsibility is it?????

Put aside people's response, for cryyii. Look at how we present ourselves. Look at the hatred and cruelty and outright bigotry that drips from this thread like the blood of the murdered.

Then explain to me how that blood isn't on our hands.

 

I am not responsible for the sins of others. Their sin is what keeps them from God, not me.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Well, whose responsibility is it?????

Put aside people's response, for cryyii. Look at how we present ourselves. Look at the hatred and cruelty and outright bigotry that drips from this thread like the blood of the murdered.

Then explain to me how that blood isn't on our hands. </font>[/QUOTE]Why do only a few find the small gate and the narrow?

Joseph Botwinick

 

...unless it's your sin that keeps them from seeing God in your life.

Then it's on you.

 

Wrong. It is their sin which keeps them from God. If God wanted to save them, nothing I could will stop that. God is sovereign and nothing will thwart the will of God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

We are Christ in the flesh to an unbeiliving world. They watch what we do ,say, and think.

We are talking politcs alot. We need to change lives and not policy. I am a regular voter. But congress or the president isn't the answer. JESUS IS THE ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!

 

1. I think I understand the sentiment here, but I think we need to be careful how we communicate it. We are not Christ. We are followers of Christ. And yes they do watch us all the time, but as Jesus himself taught in his parable of the rich ruler in Hell, if their hearts are hard, it would not matter if an angel appeared to them in person and told them about their need to repent. It is God who saves, not us. We preach the Gospel and show the love of God because we are Christians and we are obedient to his word. That should be our motivation. The result of that is that people will see the love of God through our lives and be convicted of their sins.

2. I somewhat agree with you here. Please allow me to clarify:

- God is the one who transforms lives, not us.
- Once they are transformed by the saving grace of God, much of their politics will be transformed as well (i.e.- they will not knowingly promote homosexuality or abortion in their political policies):

James 2:14-18

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joseph,

We are God's mouthpiece hereon earth. Christ should shine thru us. We should take on a family resemblance. I am a joint-heir with Christ you know!!!! We have to reach this world and share the Word in a loving and positive way.

If we went out and transformed the world the way the early church did politics would be a mute point. The change we seek would come from the heart and not law.Politics will never change the world. Jesus did!!!!

 

Joseph, who does God use to bring His message of salvation to sinners?

He's done it Himself, through Jesus, and also when He appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus.

Aside from that, He expects you and I to be His hands and feet. If we, through unfaithfulness in any area (including but not limited to hatred, bigotry, and Pharaisical judgmentalism), cloud His message to a dying world, the blood of that dying world is on our hands, and cries against us.

We cannot cloud the message in either extreme, be it selling out to universalism or relativism or building theological walls to keep sinners out and the "righteous" in. Sadly, one of the bricks in the walls we Christians insist on building is blaming. AIDS and homosexuality is but one example.

 

Patrick,

1. I agree with the sentiment. It was just the way you said it which was confusing. You are correct that we are commanded to preach the Word (which in and of itself is loving and positive). However it is God, not man which reaches the lost and saves them.

2. Salvation and transformation is not of man, but of God. You are correct that politics will not ultimately change the world. But Jesus will change your politics.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joseph, who does God use to bring His message of salvation to sinners?

He's done it Himself, through Jesus, and also when He appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus.

Aside from that, He expects you and I to be His hands and feet. If we, through unfaithfulness in any area (including but not limited to hatred, bigotry, and Pharaisical judgmentalism), cloud His message to a dying world, the blood of that dying world is on our hands, and cries against us.

We cannot cloud the message in either extreme, be it selling out to universalism or relativism or building theological walls to keep sinners out and the "righteous" in. Sadly, one of the bricks in the walls we Christians insist on building is blaming. AIDS and homosexuality is but one example. </font>[/QUOTE]TP,

Christians are not perfect. We may very well mess up every now and then, and indeed we all do. However, we cannot and will not ever thwart the will of God. He is sovereign, and will have his way one way or the other, with or without our cooperation.

We are commanded by God to preach the Word to the lost and show them the love of God. If we refuse to do so and it is God's will that a certain lost person be saved, he will work it out himself, with or without us.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joseph, who does God use to bring His message of salvation to sinners?

He's done it Himself, through Jesus, and also when He appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus.

Aside from that, He expects you and I to be His hands and feet. If we, through unfaithfulness in any area (including but not limited to hatred, bigotry, and Pharaisical judgmentalism), cloud His message to a dying world, the blood of that dying world is on our hands, and cries against us.

We cannot cloud the message in either extreme, be it selling out to universalism or relativism or building theological walls to keep sinners out and the "righteous" in. Sadly, one of the bricks in the walls we Christians insist on building is blaming. AIDS and homosexuality is but one example. </font>[/QUOTE]TP,

Christians are not perfect. We may very well mess up every now and then, and indeed we all do. However, we cannot and will not ever thwart the will of God. He is sovereign, and will have his way one way or the other, with or without our cooperation.

We are commanded by God to preach the Word to the lost and show them the love of God. If we refuse to do so and it is God's will that a certain lost person be saved, he will work it out himself, with or without us.</font>[/QUOTE]How?

 

Yes, it was mentioned by me earlier in this thread.

 

Joseph, who does God use to bring His message of salvation to sinners?

He's done it Himself, through Jesus, and also when He appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus.

Aside from that, He expects you and I to be His hands and feet. If we, through unfaithfulness in any area (including but not limited to hatred, bigotry, and Pharaisical judgmentalism), cloud His message to a dying world, the blood of that dying world is on our hands, and cries against us.

We cannot cloud the message in either extreme, be it selling out to universalism or relativism or building theological walls to keep sinners out and the "righteous" in. Sadly, one of the bricks in the walls we Christians insist on building is blaming. AIDS and homosexuality is but one example. </font>[/QUOTE]TP,

Christians are not perfect. We may very well mess up every now and then, and indeed we all do. However, we cannot and will not ever thwart the will of God. He is sovereign, and will have his way one way or the other, with or without our cooperation.

We are commanded by God to preach the Word to the lost and show them the love of God. If we refuse to do so and it is God's will that a certain lost person be saved, he will work it out himself, with or without us.</font>[/QUOTE]How? </font>[/QUOTE]If I were a sovereign God, I am sure I could come up with some very clever answer to how I don't have any human limitations like you do. But I am not. You do believe that God is sovereign, and can accomplish his will with or without you, don't you?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joseph, who does God use to bring His message of salvation to sinners?

He's done it Himself, through Jesus, and also when He appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus.

Aside from that, He expects you and I to be His hands and feet. If we, through unfaithfulness in any area (including but not limited to hatred, bigotry, and Pharaisical judgmentalism), cloud His message to a dying world, the blood of that dying world is on our hands, and cries against us.

We cannot cloud the message in either extreme, be it selling out to universalism or relativism or building theological walls to keep sinners out and the "righteous" in. Sadly, one of the bricks in the walls we Christians insist on building is blaming. AIDS and homosexuality is but one example. </font>[/QUOTE]TP,

Christians are not perfect. We may very well mess up every now and then, and indeed we all do. However, we cannot and will not ever thwart the will of God. He is sovereign, and will have his way one way or the other, with or without our cooperation.

We are commanded by God to preach the Word to the lost and show them the love of God. If we refuse to do so and it is God's will that a certain lost person be saved, he will work it out himself, with or without us.</font>[/QUOTE]How? </font>[/QUOTE]If I were a sovereign God, I am sure I could come up with some very clever answer to how I don't have any human limitations like you do. But I am not. You do believe that God is sovereign, and can accomplish his will with or without you, don't you?

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]This is like asking "do you still beat your wife?"

Yes, I beleive God can do whatever He wants to, but I also understand the Scriptures to be quite clear in this: You and I are His chosen method of accomplishing His will.

I don't see a divine "Plan B" in Scripture anywhere. Thus I return, emphatically and yet I am sure pointlessly, to the fact that how we act and how we conduct ourselves to nonbelievers matters in how and if they are going to respond to the Gospel. I know far too many people who have been turned off by "religious people" and thus have no interest in the Gospel. This isn't God's fault, is it? It isn't the person's fault, either, that some religious nut with an agenda screamed at them about going to Hell, is it? That leaves only one person at fault, my friend.

 

God's clever answer was here.

 

I will leave the how of Plan B to the soveriegn God, because he knows better than me what is possible, and certainly doesn't need me to carry it out for him. It is by his sovereign grace and mercy that he has given me the honor and obligation to proclaim his salvation to the lost world, not by necessity.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Gold Dragon renews my respect for Canada.

 

Thanks AVL1984. I didn't see it since there's alot to try to sort out, on and off topic.

 

That doesn't address my points in the least.

You are in effect saying that you can treat people any old way you want to, and if it turns them off to the message of salvation, it's their fault.

Show me this interesting theological insight in Scripture, please.