Al Mohler's response to SBC Statement

[mandym]

The attitude of Mohlers comments is way better than the attitude of the bogus unneeded statement of beliefs that started this deal.

Ah yes bogus

 

[Iconoclast]

Oh no they cannot be just fine. They are crying foul, acting as if they have not participated in what lead up to this and just overall being a victim. That is not fine.

Mandy, False teaching like this has no effect on cals at all. Most cals are just saddened by how weak this statement is.
You can keep using a broad brush and make accusations but you offer not much to back up your statements.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Best thing written on this subject!

Mohler is barely Baptist? That is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen. Mohler is a shining light for the SBC

[personal attack snipped].

Mohler is everything that is wrong with the SBC -- a Calvinist fundamentalist. A dim light. No, I take that back -- no light at all.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Do you know Mohler personally. If not how can you say you dislike him?

You make a very pejorative statement when you say: If you are going to defame Dr. Mohler you should at least present some evidence.

I don't know Mohler but would like to know him. I am thankful he is president at Southern. He has restored some integrity in the faculty. I have a copy of his discussion on the Doctrine of Grace with Paige Patterson, have read many of his articles and his excellent book He is Not Silent.

Frankly I wish more Baptists were like Dr. Mohler! I certainly agree with his characterization of the Baptist Faith and Message. One of the weaknesses of Southern Baptists is that they do not have a strong Confession. I would recommend something like the 1646 London Confession, the 1689 London Confession, or the Philadelphia Confession. Furthermore a Confession does not deny Bible freedom, soul freedom is meaningless, and no confession can affect the priesthood of the believer!

I did provide some evidence -- his own words, which convict him.

To say soul freedom is meaningless is to disrespect E.Y. Mullins, one of the most influential Southern Baptists of the 20th century. Soul freedom is one of the bedrock Baptist beliefs and one of the marks that distinguishes Baptists from others. For you to say what you did shows that you are barely Baptist.

Of course the present fundie dictatorship would not allow Mullins into the building.

 

[mandym]

Mandy, False teaching like this has no effect on cals at all. Most cals are just saddened by how weak this statement is.
You can keep using a broad brush and make accusations but you offer not much to back up your statements.

Oh I have been pointing it out for quite some time But your post here is yet another example of the reason for the statement.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Mohler sure seemed to help put out the fire that has been generated by this document, unlike Michel Wrenn, who seems to be trying to throw gas on the fire. God Bless Dr. Mohler.

Oh, because I have an opinion? Because I don't like fundie Calvinist gestapo? Not saying all Calvinists are that because I have some good Primitive Baptist friends.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

He is every bit Baptist as anyone else. But the attitude that comes to this kind of conclusion is not.

I deny that anyone who does not believe in priesthood of the believer, Bible freedom, and soul freedom is Baptist. History is on my side.

It has nothing to do with attitude. It has everything to do with the truth and the facts. I know that makes those uncomfortable who want to deny historic Baptist principles and who want to control others.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

How is it gracious to say that those who signed it [poor uneducated brothers] didn't really know that what they were signing was "semi-Pelagian" and even worse than Arminian [HERETICAL!]?

Right. Mohler is despicable.

 

[agedman]

I did provide some evidence -- his own words, which convict him.

To say soul freedom is meaningless is to disrespect E.Y. Mullins, one of the most influential Southern Baptists of the 20th century. Soul freedom is one of the bedrock Baptist beliefs and one of the marks that distinguishes Baptists from others. For you to say what you did shows that you are barely Baptist.

Of course the present fundie dictatorship would not allow Mullins into the building.

"Soul freedom" is a catch all phrase that can mean anything having to do with a person making a decision to follow Christ in baptism, to church membership, to affiliations, and in some areas what constitutes sinful behavior. In that broad dynamic is the Baptist "bedrock" belief of soul freedom.

The attachment of "Soul freedom" to salvation is misplaced; such is NOT part of the historical Baptist bedrock beliefs; it has been contrived by some in these decades to lift the title into an application that it was never truly considered to be applicable.

Folks, even Pelagius stated that no human could make a right decision without the direct and purposed work of the grace of God.


Now if one proclaimed a heretic understood the condition of the unregenerate was so degraded as to limit the "freedom" of choosing right to only be granted by the grace of God, why is it such an anathema to the Arminian folks for Calvinists to view the unregenerate as totally unregenerate?

 

[mandym]

historic Baptist principles and who want to control others.

You have no idea what that is.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Right. Mohler is despicable.

I have the highest respect for Dr. Mohler. I think his message would have been more gracious without the pop-shot against the intelligence of those who signed the statement, though.

 

[mandym]

I have the highest respect for Dr. Mohler. I think his message would have been more gracious without the pop-shot against the intelligence of those who signed the statement, though.

Which is common among Calvinists. They just cannot help themselves. And an example of the reason for the statement.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

"Soul freedom" is a catch all phrase that can mean anything having to do with a person making a decision to follow Christ in baptism, to church membership, to affiliations, and in some areas what constitutes sinful behavior. In that broad dynamic is the Baptist "bedrock" belief of soul freedom.

The attachment of "Soul freedom" to salvation is misplaced; such is NOT part of the historical Baptist bedrock beliefs; it has been contrived by some in these decades to lift the title into an application that it was never truly considered to be applicable.

Folks, even Pelagius stated that no human could make a right decision without the direct and purposed work of the grace of God.


Now if one proclaimed a heretic understood the condition of the unregenerate was so degraded as to limit the "freedom" of choosing right to only be granted by the grace of God, why is it such an anathema to the Arminian folks for Calvinists to view the unregenerate as totally unregenerate?

So I guess you would disavow E.Y. Mullins as being Southern Baptist.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

You have no idea what that is.

I know exactly what the historic Baptist principles are. And I know Mohler doesn't hold to them. His statements about the BF&M 2000 are enough to show that, as well as other things.

According to Field Marshal Mohler, I could not be a Southern Baptist because I refuse to let a man-made creed "speak for me."

 

[Michael Wrenn]

And while I am venting, I'll say that I despise all kinds of fundamentalism -- of the right and the left. They share the same characteristics. They have taken over denominations by the same methods: ignoring and rewriting their denominations' histories. They hate those who disagree with them and will not tolerate dissension. This goes for the fundies who took over the SBC, the Alliance of Baptists, the leftists who have taken over the Episcopal Church, the PCUSA, and the Lutheran Church.

I loathe them all, and lately I'm not feeling too good about the CBF, either -- once a good moderate and moderate-conservative group.

It seems this is a day for extremes -- right wing and left wing fundamentalism, with very few moderates anywhere. These extremists show nothing of the spirit and teachings of Jesus.

 

[12strings]

I can't be objective when it comes to Mohler because of my dislike of him and strong disagreement with him. I think he is barely Baptist. Statements like the following affirm it; he says of the BF&M: "Every Southern Baptist is free to believe more than the confession affirms, but never less." That denies Bible freedom, soul freedom, and priesthood of the believer.He also says of it: "Where it speaks, it speaks for us all." This also denies what the first statement does. The BF&M does not speak for me, nor does any other confession.

1. I will agree partly with Michael here. I think mohler is putting too much power into the BF&M. In reality, Every SBC church and/believer does NOT have to subscribe tot he BF&M. I know several in my own church who don't. they are not any less southern baptists.

2. I think in a different thread, didn't you somewhat agree that any baptists association or denomiation SHOULD be based on SOME basic common belief set, but that you simply think the BF&M is too narrow, or too specific? For example, would you not say that Baptists should hold to "soul liberty"? Is this not in some ways a "creed" that you believe all baptists should hold to?

 

[12strings]

How is it gracious to say that those who signed it [poor uneducated brothers] didn't really know that what they were signing was "semi-Pelagian" and even worse than Arminian [HERETICAL!]?

1. I would ask this, If you were wanting to be gracious and yet address a point of concern in a document that (a) you believe states Semi-pelagian beleifs about how the fall affected mankind, (b) was signed by some of your friends? What SHOULD he have written that would be more gracious, yet still address the point of concern?

2. What Mohler actually said was this:

Some portions of the statement actually go beyond Arminianism and appear to affirm semi-Pelagian understandings of sin, human nature, and the human will — understandings that virtually all Southern Baptists have denied.

(He did not say it, or they, were WORSE than arminian, simply BEYOND.)

3. When he states that the statements do not reflect their true beliefs, should he have instead said this: "It seems that some of my dear brother do truly hold to the historically Semi-pelagian view of the fall of man, and I fully respect that."

 

[jonathan.borland]

What is the point of saying the document "appears" to be semi-Pelagian, a system of doctrine that was condemned as heresy long ago? Either it is or it isn't. What is the point of saying that "most" of the people who signed it didn't even know they were championing what "appears" to be heretical semi-Pelagian doctrine? Where in the document does it deny that God takes the initiative in salvation? Where in the Bible does it deny that man has the freedom either to choose or to reject God when under the conviction of the Holy Spirit? Oh, that's right, Dr. Mohler didn't even quote one phrase that he disagreed with.

 

[Luke2427]

I think it's instructive to our own discussions to note that while Dr. Mohler identifies himself as a Calvinist, and says he could not sign the declaration, he did, in fairness, point out some statements with which he agrees.

And he went out of his way to call many of the signers friends of his who have contributed much to Baptist life.

I've been waiting for his take on all this and he didn't disappoint.

I agree................

 

[Luke2427]

1. I will agree partly with Michael here. I think mohler is putting too much power into the BF&M. In reality, Every SBC church and/believer does NOT have to subscribe tot he BF&M. I know several in my own church who don't. they are not any less southern baptists.

2. I think in a different thread, didn't you somewhat agree that any baptists association or denomiation SHOULD be based on SOME basic common belief set, but that you simply think the BF&M is too narrow, or too specific? For example, would you not say that Baptists should hold to "soul liberty"? Is this not in some ways a "creed" that you believe all baptists should hold to?

The BF&M IS our statement of faith.

All Southern Baptists should ascribe to it or move out.