Alcohol

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by blackbird:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TexasSky:
Christ had a glass of wine with meals. Christ never got drunk.

Did He??? At every meal??? I believe we're stretching and bending Scripture a tad bit here---when there is no such thing as a "Scripture Stretcher"---nor a "Scripture Bender"

What about that time---Post-Resurrection---when He called for the disciples out of the boat---they were on the lake--He was on the shore----had a fire going(I suppose we want to assume He started the fire with His trusty Zippo, huh??) and the fish cooking---no mention there of any wine, is there?? </font>[/QUOTE]You added the word every.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Brother Ian:
I think the stumbling block part doesn't matter to most people.

In 1 Corinthians 10:23 Paul said, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

1 Tim 5:21-24, "I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin. No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments. The sins of some men are quite evident, going before them to judgment; for others, their sins follow after."

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by blackbird:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TexasSky:
Christ had a glass of wine with meals. Christ never got drunk.

Did He??? At every meal??? I believe we're stretching and bending Scripture a tad bit here---when there is no such thing as a "Scripture Stretcher"---nor a "Scripture Bender"

What about that time---Post-Resurrection---when He called for the disciples out of the boat---they were on the lake--He was on the shore----had a fire going(I suppose we want to assume He started the fire with His trusty Zippo, huh??) and the fish cooking---no mention there of any wine, is there?? </font>[/QUOTE]You added the word every. </font>[/QUOTE]OK---lets try it again!

with meals??

Proof???

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by blackbird:
OK---lets try it again!

with meals??

Proof???

NASB - Matthew 26:26-29

While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

This passage is also found in Mark 14 and Luke 22.

Many teetotalers eisegete this passage as grape juice. But as SeriousOne shows us above, making and maintaining alcohol free grape juice is a difficult, labour intensive and nearly impossible task for that culture. He suggests that when hydrated at room temperature, his recipe for grape juice syrup will ferment. Why would Jesus' culture waste all that effort to produce alcohol free grape juice that ferments again at room temperture? Such a process also sounds expensive and its product outside the budget of Jesus and his disciples. But even if they did buy it, refrigeration was obviously not available to keep it alcohol free.

Finally, there is no historical evidence that such a process existed or was in use in biblical times while there is much evidence that alcoholic wine existed and was in use during that time.

Also, many believe the last supper to be the passover sedar meal which is traditionally served with alcoholic wine.

 

[shannonL]

If Paul had to tell Timothy to drink a "little" wine then Tim. must have been abstaining. I don't think Paul was telling him to "slow down" on his drinking.
Deejay : I personally believe "fermentation" is a result of the curse of sin. fermentation results from decay etc... Nobody addressed the point i was making earlier except for Deejay. If Jesus made fermented wine and some folk got drunk then Christ provided a substance that was a stumbling block for some. Jesus was God He knows all. So your telling me Christ made fermented wine that He knew would make some drunk thus contridicting Rom.14:21 by His doing so. Christ "tempted" some to drink knowing full well they would "overdo" it if wine was there for them to partake.
I don't see it.
If that is the case then how about these parents that let there kids stay home and party. Getting drunk etc... Are the parents not at all responsible? Maybe that is not a perfect analogy but its pretty close.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by shannonL:
Deejay : I personally believe "fermentation" is a result of the curse of sin. fermentation results from decay etc...

I would hope you keep these completely unbiblical eisegesis to yourself. There are many passages warning of false teaching in the bible.

Fermentation is yeast/bacterial breathing in the absence of oxygen.

The biochemical process of lactic acid production in humans in the absence of oxygen is equivalent to the biochemical processes of fermentation used by microorganisms in the absence of oxygen.

Both processes metabolize sugars in the absence of oxygen to allow glycolysis to proceed and produce ATP which is the universal energy currency of cells.

 

[Gold Dragon]

The following foods are also the product of fermentation:

cheese
yogurt
tofu
soy sauce
kimchi
vinegar
pickles
..

 

[Johnv]

I personally believe "fermentation" is a result of the curse of sin. fermentation results from decay etc...

That is simply not scripturally supportable. If we presume the inhabitants of the Garden were vegetarians, they killed plant matter every time they ate. In that light, bacteria feeding off the juice of the grapes is perfectly in line with a literal Genesis view. There is no way, sans perversion of scripture, that you can make a case for fermentation being the result of the curse of sin.

Ans, as pointed out prior, of you held to that view, you'd have to be consistent and abstain from eating cheese, yogurt, tofu, soy sauce, vinegar, pickles, tartar sauce, and sauerkraut.

Kimchi I could understand.

Not to mention, you'd have to refrain from eating anything grown from compost or fertilizer, because compost and fertilizer are the result of the sin of death. That pretty much means you'd be going hungry.

 

[Gold Dragon]

All breads and cakes that use yeast as a rising agent also are products of alcoholic fermentation. Most of the small amount of alcohol produced is evaporated in the heat of the baking process.

 

[SeriousOne]

The point of my explanation of "wine" and "strong drink" from Scripture is to say that in Jesus' day, the wine was very dilute and one would have to sit all day long and drink it to become intoxicated. It had a substantially lower alcohol content than today's wine. In fact today's wine would have fallen into the category of "strong drink."

Another thought: The priests of the OT were not to become intoxicated -- not ever!! Nor were they to "give themselves OVER" to anything. Believers of the NT are all called "priests to serve" so perhaps we can make a direct application. If is was not good for priests of the OT is it good for priests (us) of the NT?

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by SeriousOne:
The point of my explanation of "wine" and "strong drink" from Scripture is to say that in Jesus' day, the wine was very dilute and one would have to sit all day long and drink it to become intoxicated.

What's your basis for saying this? If you had to sit and drink all day in order to get drunk, why did the Bible even have to warn against intoxication at all?

 

[Brother Ian]

I don't drink and I would encourage other Christians to abastain as well. It does not portray anything but worldliness.

I think some Christians just want to drink.

Another point, Serious One touched on it above. Much of the water in Bible times was not fit to drink. There was a common practice of mixing fermented wine with water sometimes as high as 20 to 1 to kill the bacteria in the water. I recognize I was not there and cannot personally verify this was true, but the research I have conducted shows that to be the case.

Continue to drink wine with your meal if you choose. I for one will not. Perhaps taking a drink is permitted in Scripture, but I am not going to do it. I choose to take the moral high road.

 

[SeriousOne]

Petrel, hello

The basis for saying this is the following which is the historical and cultural background for 1 Tim. 3:3 where the instruction to believers is to “not stay ‘near’ wine” (ie. sit drinking it all day which could eventually lead to intoxication simply because of the quantity.):

I. Two General Questions
A. Is today’s wine the same a s it was in the Bible?
1. Words for wine in the N.T. and O.T.
a. Greek=oinos (oinos) or Hebrew=yayin
1. Grape juice boiled until a syrup or paste (no alcohol)
a. Mixed with water still 0% alcohol unless allowed to set at room
temperature which caused to start fermenting; yield 2-3% alcohol
b. Timothy told: “Drink no longer water, but use a little oinos for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.” 1 Tim. 5:23
2. Words for new wine in the N.T. and O.T.
a. Greek=gleucos or Hebrew=tarash
1. Grape squeezed and allowed to ferment: yield 11% maximum alcohol
content.
a. Mixed at 3:1 ratio which yielded ?3% alcohol (often diluted 10x)
compares to today’s “near beer” which can be purchased by anyone.
1. This is the reference to 1 Tim. 3:3 where the instruction to believers is to “not stay ‘near’ wine” (ie. sit drinking it all day which could eventually lead to intoxication simply because of the quantity.)

Hope this is helpful

 

[Brother Ian]

Originally posted by Petrel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SeriousOne:
The point of my explanation of "wine" and "strong drink" from Scripture is to say that in Jesus' day, the wine was very dilute and one would have to sit all day long and drink it to become intoxicated.

What's your basis for saying this? If you had to sit and drink all day in order to get drunk, why did the Bible even have to warn against intoxication at all? </font>[/QUOTE]I think what SeriousOne is saying is that the wine consumed as a matter of routine (i.e., with meals) was of the diluted variety.

Of course there were others who drank the fermented stuff just to get drunk.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by SeriousOne:
The point of my explanation of "wine" and "strong drink" from Scripture is to say that in Jesus' day, the wine was very dilute and one would have to sit all day long and drink it to become intoxicated.

So by your reasoning, a Mike's Hard Lemonade or Smirnoff Ice would be okay, because they have 1/2 the alcohol content of wine? I doubt most anti-alcohol Christian would agree with you. However, it's a false premise. Wine naturally ferments to about 12% alcohol. It did then, it does now. Keeping wine longer doesn't increase the alcohol content, just makes it taste bad. It is in fact a science today to attempt to slow down and control the fermentation process to produce the best tasting wine.

The priests of the OT were not to become intoxicated -- not ever!! Nor were they to "give themselves OVER" to anything. Believers of the NT are all called "priests to serve" so perhaps we can make a direct application. If is was not good for priests of the OT is it good for priests (us) of the NT?

No one disputes this, because no one advocates drunkenness (which is what these verses discuss).

Originally posted by Brother Ian:
I don't drink and I would encourage other Christians to abastain as well. It does not portray anything but worldliness.

Says who? Not scripture. It is only so based on manmade determinations.

I choose to take the moral high road.

No, you choose something morally permissible. It is not a "higher" road or "lower" road than a Christian who consumes alcohol within the boundaries of scripture.

 

[Brother Ian]

JohnV,

We must agree to disagree. I believe it displays worldliness and I believe it is the moral high road.

 

[Bunyon]

"Wine naturally ferments to about 12% alcohol."

It depend on how long you keep it in an anaerobic environment. If you expose it to oxygen to early you can end up with less alcohol. It does not have to get to 12percent.
Just a factoid. Temperature and sugar content can effect alcohol content also. But you can only get it to 12 percent becasue the alcohol becomes toxic to the fermenting bactria. To get higher concentrations one has to switch to a distillation process.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Brother Ian:
We must agree to disagree. I believe it displays worldliness and I believe it is the moral high road.

Fair enough, my brother. I will agree, though, that if it is being used in a setting that clearly promotes worldliness, then it should be avoided altogether.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by SeriousOne:
Another thought: The priests of the OT were not to become intoxicated -- not ever!! Nor were they to "give themselves OVER" to anything. Believers of the NT are all called "priests to serve" so perhaps we can make a direct application. If is was not good for priests of the OT is it good for priests (us) of the NT?

It definitely is good for NT priests. Nobody has said that alcohol abstinence is bad. I respect those who make this commitment to holiness like the Nazarite vows and John the Baptist.

However, I wonder how consistent you are about using Levitical priesthood rules as guides for yourself.

Do you obey the other dietary restrictions besides alcohol?
How about the many rules to avoid touching unclean things?

 

[SeriousOne]

Hi Gold Dragon,
I was referring to the OT as using the principles found there. The preisthood (which all believers are now a part of are "set apart." I am the last person to put myself back under the Law. The new testament is abundantly clear that the Law is the means of leading us to the place where we see how sinful we are. Galatians is oh so direct. The law is the schoolmaster to lead us to CHRIST as the ONLY means of Salvation. 1 Timothy 1:8ff says the Law was made for the sinner [to show him (us) our sinfulness and when we come to that place of recognizing that we cannot keep the Law nor add anthing to the finished work of CHRIST which HE purchased on our behalf at Calvary, HE is then able to extend HIS grace and mercy.

I realize that Peter was addressing a predominantly Jewish audience (so it was a no brainer for them, I suspect) in 1 and 2 Peter so his reference to being "priests to serve" follows his presentation of "Be ye holy for I am holy"
I think the main thing is that we are not to be as the world so WHATEVER we do must done in a way that CHRIST is glorified; holy as we understand it is "set apart" and priests were set apart for service. Sorry for the rambling-I hope my thoughts aren't too abstract.