All are saved by grace.

[1689Dave]

The Calvinism debates have gone from interesting to assanine. Do you think the 13 Apostles sat around debating this crap?

They gave us the material through which we understand these sorts of things. Truth is good.

 

[1689Dave]

Clearly the flesh stands for our sinfulness. But you are not ONLY sinfulness.

When Paul brings it up it is about OUR response to the flesh rather than the flesh being our response.

If everything about you was SIN there would be nothing there to SAVE.



"The gospel simply announces salvation for those who believe."

No THE WORD literally is JESUS CHRIST. It is not ink and paper it is FLESH and BLOOD, Jesus Christ is the word.

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.



James 1

18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth,


You are saying Jesus Christ does not save, Rather God the father saves by pushing a button on his robot.




1 Corinthians 15

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.



by which also you are saved. He could have said "The gospel simply announces salvation for those who believe."

He does not.


Again the problem here is of humility and not thinking through even God's own sovereign capacity.

It is GOD's Word that saves but you can't equate God's chosen means of the WORD to his credit unless he personally walks down from heaven opens the fuse box in your head and flips a switch.


I Have no doubt if God WANTED to run a system of Calvinism He could. He has the omnipotence to do what he wants.

What I ask Calvinist is it possible to run a system that is not Calvinism. I'm not insisting he hasn't, but does he have the capacity to do things differently. Or is it believed for God to win a game of checkers, chess or poker he has to fix your losing hand and choose your losing moves.

Luther used the example of the extreme warfare of the flesh and spirit in the Christian to demonstrate to Erasmus that without the Spirit nobody would ever come to God.

 

[1689Dave]

OK, try to follow this and then answer my question, please.

Utilyan made a post about repentance, quoting Acts 11:18 which says that repentance leads to life (among other verses.)

You blithely respond "A corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit..." You are clearly saying repentance is "good fruit". In Biblical terminology "good fruit", are good works, originating with the Holy Spirit's influence on a believer's life.

So are you saying that repentance is a work?

“When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” (Acts 11:18)

They believed (were saved) or they would not have repented.

 

[GoodTidings]

The Arminian must believe before he would choose to believe (a form of repentance). The Calvinist must believe before he chooses to repent. It's just in how we define repentance. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So all are saved by grace before they decide anything.

Belief is not a form of repentance. That premise is not correct. The Bible makes a clear distinction between repentance and belief.

Repentance is our response to the Gospel's accusation that we have sinned and stand condemned. Repentance is a change of mind and results in a change of direction.

 

[1689Dave]

Belief is not a form of repentance. That premise is not correct. The Bible makes a clear distinction between repentance and belief.

Repentance is our response to the Gospel's accusation that we have sinned and stand condemned. Repentance is a change of mind and results in a change of direction.

Belief precedes choosing to believe or any other act of repentance. If you didn't believe, you would n't choose to believe.

 

[GoodTidings]

I can accept that belief precedes repentance. I am responding to your claim that belief is a form of repentance. It is not a form of repentance.

 

[1689Dave]

I can accept that belief precedes repentance. I am responding to your claim that belief is a form of repentance. It is not a form of repentance.

Choosing to believe is not a form of biblical repentance, any more than making a decision or going forward. But they are stand ins for what would normally be baptism.

 

[GoodTidings]

Choosing to believe is not a form of biblical repentance, any more than making a decision or going forward. But they are stand ins for what would normally be baptism.

I am not talking about "choosing to believe." I am addressing your claim that belief is a form of repentance. Are you recanting on that claim?

 

[1689Dave]

I am not talking about "choosing to believe." I am addressing your claim that belief is a form of repentance. Are you recanting on that claim?

I never said that. I said choosing to believe is based on already believing, or they wouldn't choose to believe.

 

[GoodTidings]

I never said that. I said choosing to believe is based on already believing, or they wouldn't choose to believe.

I see. My mistake. You said here,

The Arminian must believe before he would choose to believe (a form of repentance).

Okay, so believing before choosing to believe is a form of repentance. This is not in the Bible; it appears to be something you have made up. You said in the same quote that it all about how we define repentance, and I pointed out that the Bible only knows ONE definition of repentance and not your artificial definition of it.

 

[1689Dave]

I see. My mistake. You said here,

Okay, so believing before choosing to believe is a form of repentance. This is not in the Bible; it appears to be something you have made up. You said in the same quote that it all about how we define repentance, and I pointed out that the Bible only knows ONE definition of repentance and not your artificial definition of it.

Choosing to believe is not in the bible. But Arminians claim it is a type of sacrament that conveys salvation. What I'm saying is a person must believe (be saved) or they would not believe enough to partake of the sacrament.

 

[canadyjd]

You were born again or you would not have been repentant. The flesh loves sin and hates God.

I believe Holy Spirit was convicting me of the sin in my life and leading me to the truth of salvation in Jesus Christ.

Did Holy Spirit "regenerate" me so that I could understand and repent? Perhaps the entire process of conviction, leading to repentance, leading to understanding the gospel, leading to faith in Jesus and His work, leading to indwelling Holy Spirit, leading to transformed life can be called "regeneration".

If we try too hard to mark the "steps" in the process of salvation, we might be attempting to comprehend spiritual details that cannot be fully understood this side of heaven.

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

I never said that. I said choosing to believe is based on already believing, or they wouldn't choose to believe.

Choosing to believe is based on Holy Spirit convicting of sin and leading into the truth of the gospel, imo.

Peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

Choosing to believe is based on Holy Spirit convicting of sin and leading into the truth of the gospel, imo.

Peace to you

Choosing to repent. You must already believe (be saved) or you would not choose any course of action.

 

[1689Dave]

I believe Holy Spirit was convicting me of the sin in my life and leading me to the truth of salvation in Jesus Christ.

Did Holy Spirit "regenerate" me so that I could understand and repent? Perhaps the entire process of conviction, leading to repentance, leading to understanding the gospel, leading to faith in Jesus and His work, leading to indwelling Holy Spirit, leading to transformed life can be called "regeneration".

If we try too hard to mark the "steps" in the process of salvation, we might be attempting to comprehend spiritual details that cannot be fully understood this side of heaven.

Peace to you

There are no steps in the salvation process. You believe by grace = no step. And then you repent because you believe and are saved.

 

[InTheLight]

“When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” (Acts 11:18)

They believed (were saved) or they would not have repented.

Not only did you evade my question with a non-answer but you simply read into the text whatever you want.

Nobody repented in Acts 11:18. Nobody is said to have believed first and then repented. The verse is there to confirm to Jews that salvation is available to Gentiles.

I will mark it down that you believe repentance is a work since you call it a fruit, and you have neither denied it isn't a work nor have you answered my question.

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[InTheLight]

I never said that. I said choosing to believe is based on already believing, or they wouldn't choose to believe.

#5

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[InTheLight]

Choosing to believe is not in the bible. But Arminians claim it is a type of sacrament that conveys salvation.

#4

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[GoodTidings]

Choosing to believe is not in the bible. But Arminians claim it is a type of sacrament that conveys salvation. What I'm saying is a person must believe (be saved) or they would not believe enough to partake of the sacrament.

Where do Arminians claim that choosing to believe is a "type of sacrament?"

In addition, all belief is the product of making a choice. If you hear the Gospel you can believe it or not. Belief is always a conscious decision.

 

[1689Dave]

Where do Arminians claim that choosing to believe is a "type of sacrament?"

In addition, all belief is the product of making a choice. If you hear the Gospel you can believe it or not. Belief is always a conscious decision.

They don't, but if it quacks and walks like a duck, it probably is.