All have sinned when Adam sinned - Rom. 5:12-19

[The Biblicist]

Based on Genesis 2:17 death existed else God spoke of what did not yet have any real meaning.

Whoaaa! Death did not exist prior to Adam's sin as Romans 5:12 explicitly pinpoints the precise time and reason death entered into the world. It did not enter, thus did not exist prior to Adam's sin. Death is not part of natural creation. Death does not have to exist to have a rational understanding of what it is. Sin did not exist prior to partaking of the forbidden fruit but yet they had a mental comprehension of what sin was - violation of God's command.

 

[The Biblicist]

Based on Genesis 2:17 death existed else God spoke of what did not yet have any real meaning.

Genesis 2:17 says no such thing. Indeed, it says the very opposite. It says "in the day" they ate that death would occur not previous to that day.

 

[The Biblicist]

1. Romans 5:12 makes the assertion that death entered into this world by one man and by one sin and that death is "passed" down to all men because "all have sinned" at the very same punctilliar point in time when that one man sinned and therefore all are justifiably condemned to death.

2. Romans 5:13-19 defends that assertion.

a. Romans 5:13-14 deals with a specific period of time between Adam and Moses to prove universal death can have no other justifiable source than universal violation of Genesis 2:17 Law. Dying infants do not violate the law of conscience and adults did not violate the law of Moses and so universal death cannot be justified outside and apart form violation of Genesis 2:17 by one man - Adam in whom the whole undivided human nature existed and acted as one man.

b. Romans 5:15-19 denies that death is due to sins plural by sinners plural but justification for universal death, condemnation, being made sinners are all caused by one man and one sin.

When was death "passed" upon all men? It was passed upon Cain and Abel and it is this forms the last phrase in every geneology in the book of Genesis "and he died." Yet, the cause stated "for" it being "passed" upon all men is because "all have sinned." Hence, the point in time when they "sinned" occurred prior to the birth of Cain or Abel and is simelataneous with the action of Adam's sin.

 

[MB]

Whoaaa! Death did not exist prior to Adam's sin as Romans 5:12 explicitly pinpoints the precise time and reason death entered into the world. It did not enter, thus did not exist prior to Adam's sin. Death is not part of natural creation. Death does not have to exist to have a rational understanding of what it is. Sin did not exist prior to partaking of the forbidden fruit but yet they had a mental comprehension of what sin was - violation of God's command.

If Adam was dead spiritually then how is it he was able to communicate with God after he sinned. In fact Adam continued to speak with God. Cain also spoke with Him and he also heard God speak to him.
MB

 

[The Biblicist]

If Adam was dead spiritually then how is it he was able to communicate with God after he sinned. In fact Adam continued to speak with God. Cain also spoke with Him and he also heard God speak to him.
MB

The communication in Genesis 3 is audible when God confronted him with his sin. He confronted and audibly communicated with a fallen Satan in the form of a serpent as well. God audibly communicated with Cain as well, with regard to confrontation with his sin. No prophet existed after the death of Abel or before the birth of Abel and so God communicated audibly with some sinners with regard to confrontation of their sins which normally was performed by God's prophets.

 

[MB]

But fallen men are not suppose to hear or understand. What makes you so sure? The Bible does not say God was audible. At any rate Cain heard God speak when according to you and others we can't hear God or He hear us unless we are spiritually alive because God is Spirit.
MB

 

[37818]

Genesis 2:17 says no such thing. Indeed, it says the very opposite. It says "in the day" they ate that death would occur not previous to that day.

You miss the point. Either death exists and the warning means something or death does not yet exist and the warning God gave was meaningless to Adam until it was to late.

 

[The Biblicist]

You miss the point. Either death exists and the warning means something or death does not yet exist and the warning God gave was meaningless to Adam until it was to late.

You are missing the point. Romans 5:12 pinpoints the precise time death entered this world and it was "in the day" he sinned. You are confusing experiential knowledge with mental instruction. Your view flatly contradicts plain and explicit scripture to the contrary. Your view demands it preceded his sin while Paul states clearly it did not precede his sin but was contemporary with it. y Your argument is like saying disobedience had to be already in the world for him to know what disobeying God meant.

 

[Iconoclast]

But fallen men are not suppose to hear or understand. What makes you so sure? The Bible does not say God was audible. At any rate Cain heard God speak when according to you and others we can't hear God or He hear us unless we are spiritually alive because God is Spirit.
MB

jn12;
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

it is the hearing ear, connected to the heart. Unsaved persons go to hear sermons physically, but they cannot hear it savingly because they live fully in the flesh.

 

[percho]

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Gen 3:1

Did the serpent, the devil, have the power of death at that moment? Where did that power come from?

What if God had not said, "thou shalt not eat of it:"?

The sting of death, sin; and the strength of sin, the law. What is the weakness of the law?

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,

What was God's purpose in creating man, of the flesh and giving him a law and putting him in the presence of him who had the power of, the death?

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Rom 8:20

What effect would, "In Hope," have on him who had the power of, the death.

 

[Van]

One argument used to bolster the "death was not part of the good creation" view is that Adam had his language skills and vocabulary given to him supernaturally, such that he understood "death" even though he had not encountered it.

OTOH, death entering the world may refer to mankind's spiritual death as a result of Adam's disobedience.

But I am still waiting for someone to explain why Adam needed to reach to the tree of life, if he was created as an immortal? Tick toc Pretty basic question for those holding the death was not part of the good creation view.

 

[Iconoclast]

If Adam was dead spiritually then how is it he was able to communicate with God after he sinned. In fact Adam continued to speak with God. Cain also spoke with Him and he also heard God speak to him.
MB

From Calvinism/Arminianism by W. r. Downing;
THE NOETIC EFFECTS OF THE FALL

What are the noetic effects of the fall?414 The fall or apostasy from God has left man hopelessly impaired and doomed to futility in his reasoning or perceptive capacity. As an unregenerate sinner, he cannot (because of spiritual, moral and intellectual inability) truly know God, deal with reality (he has exchanged truth and reality for “the lie” and so virtually everything is based on false assumptions [premises] and conclusions, Rom. 1:24–26), or attain unto true knowledge. Because man by nature is under the reigning power of sin with all its consequences, his thought–processes are sinful, fragmented, and doomed to futility; and his mind–set is contrary to God and truth. In short, man apart from God is epistemologically bankrupt and doomed to futility.415

• Unregenerate individuals, rather than come to the realization of the truth, are constantly suppressing the truth by their ungodly and wicked lifestyles. This is a reality, even though the witness of God through creation is sufficient to leave them entirely without excuse. (Psa. 19:1–4; Rom. 1:18–20).

• Man by nature (existing under the effects of the reigning power of sin, and suffering from the noetic effects of the fall) has neither regard for the knowledge of the true God, nor the ability to comprehend reality and truth as they actually exist. Thus man, apart from regenerating grace, neither comprehends nor



411 tou/to ginw,skontej o[ti o` palaio.j h`mw/n a;nqrwpoj [old, of the past, describing the unregenerate self. The believer is the “new man” or regenerate self] sunestaurw,qh [aor., was crucified, a past event], i[na katarghqh/| / [emph. pos. rendered inoperative, stripped of its controlling power or influence] to. sw/ma th/j a`marti,aj( tou/ mhke,ti douleu,ein [to serve as a willing bondslave] h`ma/j th/| a`marti,a|\[Sin is arthrous, and so personified]. 412 a`marti,a ga.r u`mw/n ouv kurieu,sei\ ouv ga,r evste u`po. no,mon [anarth., under a mere outward principle of law] avlla. u`po. ca,rinÅ [anarth., under an inward principle of grace]. Without the def. art. [arthrous], both “law” and “grace” refer to principles. A principle of “law” could only command, but could never enable; a principle of grace, working inwardly and effectually, enables the believer to conform in principle to God’s commands. The unbeliever or unregenerate individual remains under the reigning power of sin. 413 No man is free. He is either a willing bondslave of sin or a willing bondslave of righteousness! 414 “Noetic” derives from the noun nou/j, “mind” [the seat of reflective consciousness, perception, understanding, judging or determining], and the corresponding verb noe,w, “to think, understand, perceive, judge, intelligently determine.” The noetic effects of sin refer to the effects of the fall [apostasy] upon the mind or intellectual ability of man as a sinner. 415 Unregenerate man is univocal in his thinking rather than revelational. “Univocal” (from unus, “one” and vox, “voice,” and so having only one meaning. He is his own pou sto and only source of truth and reality). Regenerate individuals are to be revelational, i.e., they are to live and think in the context of God and his revelation in both nature [God’s created and ordered universe] and Scripture. 151



intelligently welcomes spiritual reality or truth (Rom. 1:21–22; Acts 17:26–28; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 4:17–19; Titus 3:3416).

• Man in his quest for sinful autonomy and meaning, has tried, through idolatry, to drag God down to his level, and has thus side–stepped the Creator to worship creation. He has rejected [reprobated] the one true God in his thinking. God therefore has rejected [reprobated] man in his thinking and has given him over to his own deception, perversion and epistemological futility. Although man has done his utmost to erase God from his thought–process, he still retains a consciousness of God and Divine judgment—the reality of “the work of the law written in his heart.” Against any truth from or about God, man has a great aversion (Rom. 1:23–32; Rom. 2: 14–15417; Rom. 8:7–8).



THE REALITY OF SATANIC BLINDNESS

Man by nature is under the controlling power of Satan, who has spiritually blinded him to prevent him from coming to any knowledge of the truth of the Gospel. This Satanic blindness can only be removed by a sovereign act of God, the very same power that first gave reality to light by fiat decree at creation (2 Cor. 4:4–7).

THE NATURE OF MAN’S DEPRAVITY AND INABILITY

TOTAL DEPRAVITY

Man as an unregenerate sinner is totally depraved.418 He is totally depraved, but not absolutely depraved. Absolute depravity would mean that man is as bad or evil as he could be; total depravity simply means that every part of man’s being—intellect, emotions and volition [will] have been thoroughly permeated and completely affected by sin. He is morally depraved, or subject to all moral trespasses under the reigning power of sin.

TOTAL INABILITY

Man as an unregenerate sinner also suffers from a total inability. This inability is not physical, but spiritual, moral, ethical and intellectual. He is “spiritually dead” or wholly unresponsive to spiritual realities—a “spiritual corpse”. He is under the influence of sin as to its realities of guilt, punishment and pollution, and as to its reigning power in his life. He carries the sentence of original sin, an inherited sinful nature and the awful realities of constant personal sins. He is doomed to epistemological futility, i.e., he suffers from the noetic effects of sin to such a degree that he cannot come to terms with spiritual realities. What truth he does perceive, he suppresses, repudiates or seeks to change so that he can live with it. And he exists under the controlling and blinding power of Satan, who keeps him from any true knowledge of the Gospel.

416 “Foolish,” (avno,htoi), senseless, not understanding. 417 The Gentiles [non–Jews] had no special revelation from God as the Jews did in the Scriptures, yet they (as being created in the image of God) had a moral consciousness described as “the work of the law written in their heart [inner being],” i.e., a moral quality and character indelibly inscribed upon their inner being—an essential part of human nature. 418 depravus, from de, thoroughly, and pravus, crooked. 152

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2
SPIRITUAL DEATH

Not only is every human being constituted a sinner by God through imputation, by the inheritance of a sinful nature, and by personal transgressions, but everyone born into the human race as a sinner is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1–3, 5). This state of spiritual death is not one of inactivity, but rather one of unresponsiveness to spiritual realities. Those described in Ephesians 2:1–3 are mentally, morally, ethically and socially active—even religiously active—but are spiritually dead [spiritually unresponsive, “spiritual corpses”]. Man apart from the regenerating grace of God [the impartation of Divine life, the re–creation of the image of God, and deliverance from the reigning power of sin] is both completely adverse to Divine truth and utterly incapable of adequately knowing or properly responding to Divine life, reality and truth (Jn. 3:3, 5409; Rom. 8:7–8; 1 Cor. 2:14).

THE REIGNING POWER OF SIN

As a sinner, man is described in Scripture as “a willing bondslave” of sin.410 Sin is his undisputed lord and master—sin reigns over him with all its deceptive, polluting and perverting control. He is under the guilt, punishment, pollution and power of sin unless he is delivered from this terrible state by the free and sovereign grace of God. Only God in his grace can separate man from his “sins” (plural) and from “sin” (singular) as the reigning,

408 “Federal,” from the Latin foedus, a league or compact. God constituted Adam the representative head of the human race by covenant. He stood before God as Representative Man. Man as a creature had no say in this; it was and remains simply a matter of sovereign and creative right (Cf. Rom. 9:14–21). What God ordains is right because God himself is both ultimate [absolute] and righteous. There is no absolute, law or principle to which he himself is subject. His rightness derives from his own inherent moral self–consistency. If God himself were subject to any other or higher standard or entity, he would himself be relative and not the God of Scripture. 409 “Born again,” lit: “born [receive spiritual life] from above” (gennhqh, a;nwqen), the necessary impartation of Divine life by the effectual work of the Spirit of God for anyone to either see or enter the realm of spiritual reality and truth (Cf. Eph. 2:4–5). 410 The term always used is dou/loj, which denotes someone who is so much a slave that his own will is swallowed up in the will of his master—the picture of abject slavery. 150

 

[Iconoclast]

pt3
400 yuciko.j de. a;nqrwpoj [man at the apex of his powers. Used of the great philosophers] ouv de,cetai [does not intelligently welcome with the hand, cf. “dexterous”] ta. tou/ pneu,matoj tou/ qeou/\ mwri,a ga.r [foolish (emph. pos.), hence, tasteless, insipid, cf. “moron,” “morose,” mentally deficient] auvtw/| evstin kai. ouv du,natai [not able, having no dynamic] gnw/nai( o[ti pneumatikw/j avnakri,netaiÅ There must be spiritual life before there can be spiritual perception. 401 The word “dead” is not a verb, but a noun following a pres. ptc. (o;ntaj nekrou.j) giving the connotation of a continued or unchanging state. The term used in these verses is “corpse” (nekro,j), i.e., wholly and totally unresponsive to spiritual life and realities. The use of the noun rather than the verb for “dead” makes the expression much stronger. The parenthetical expression at the end of this passage emphasizes that salvation by grace is nothing less than the impartation of spiritual life. 402 evn mataio,thti tou/ noo.j auvtw/n Lit: “in the futility of their thinking evskotwme,noi th/| dianoi,a| o;ntej. The ptc. is placed last, making the terms “darkened” and “the understanding” emphatic by pos. The term “understanding” (dia,noia) denotes the faculty of knowing, understanding or moral reflection. The entire statement (Eph. 4:17–19) demonstrates both the epistemological futility of unregenerate man and the resulting moral judgment of God upon such ignorance. th.n a;gnoian th.n ou=san evn auvtoi/j( dia. th.n pw,rwsin th/j kardi,aj auvtw/n. The term “ignorance” (th.n a;gnoian) denotes want of knowledge or perception. The reason given here is “the blindness of their own hearts”—a willful, culpable blindness. Man does not know God; man does not want to know God. 144

 

[The Biblicist]

But fallen men are not suppose to hear or understand. What makes you so sure? The Bible does not say God was audible. At any rate Cain heard God speak when according to you and others we can't hear God or He hear us unless we are spiritually alive because God is Spirit.
MB

Genesis 3 explicitly states that Adam heard the "voice" of God as God walked through the Garden. You are confusing "hear" in the sense of understand and obey from the heart. Anyone can hear with their physical ear audible sounds.

 

[MB]

Icon
None of the scriptures you have presented supports what you claim. Scripture states the opposite. What men have to say about total depravity is just their opinion, which is not supported by scripture. Men disabled by total depravity is just is not in scripture. This is why you have not shown it in scripture. The Jews were blinded because of there rejection of Christ. Not because of the fall. We've been over this before.

MB

 

[MB]

Genesis 3 explicitly states that Adam heard the "voice" of God as God walked through the Garden. You are confusing "hear" in the sense of understand and obey from the heart. Anyone can hear with their physical ear audible sounds.

God is still Spirit and Calvinist all have said that we can only respond Spiritually and that fallen man is incapable of communicating with God because they are Spiritually dead. Now you say God was physcial and is why Adam could hear God. God Him self never appeared physically to man not even Moses. Infact No man has seen God and lived. Yet for this instance you insist that God appeared physically in order to talk with Adam. Show scripture where it says God was physical when talking with Adam.

 

[loDebar]

Those opposed this view often cite Ezekiel 18 and the fact that post-fallen sinful children are not condemned for the sinful acts of post-fallen sinful fathers. However, this has NO application to the prefallen origin of sin and the representative sinless man Adam and the impact of his singular sin upon his descendents. Adam acted at least in a representative capacity for all mankind. Those in Ezekiel 18 do not act in that same capacity and so citing Ezekiel 18 is eisegesis not exegesis.

Moreover, being "made sinners" cannot be divorced from the context as being "made sinners" is directly and inseparably contextually related to one man's sin AND by that same singular sin many were equally "condemned" and "be dead."

Paul's clear argument is that all men sinned when Adam sinned as all men existed as one undivided human nature within one sinless man - Adam. Death is "passed" down through the male seed (not the female) and that is why Christ was born of the seed of the woman not the seed of the man.

This is totally wrong and intentionally misleading .Read the chapter of Romans 9 you will see the comparison that by one all may be affected as Adam sin affected the WORLD, Yet by one man a system of Salvation exists. One may effect many.
We are not forced to sin, as we are not forced to be saved

The Law "made" or declared us to be sinners, even though man was already sinful, No law no knowledge of sin.

So how were "made sinners" if there was no law until Moses?

All men have sinned yet it is not the same event as Adam's sin that affect the physical world
We suffer because of Adams sin, We do not continue in sin because of Adam

So Ezekiel is correct, Inherited sin debt does not exist, We each are responsible for ourselves. Sin is not physical but spiritual, as Jesus said

 

[MB]

To show that at least the Gentiles can hear and understand. Paul wrote;
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
So much for your Non-Biblical total depravity.
MB

 

[church mouse guy]

Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV) The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Psalms 51:5 (KJV) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 3:12 (KJV) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.