All that the Father gives Me

[AustinC]

Thanks for agreeing with the OP. God saves those He elects to save!

Correct

His effort to "win some" demonstrates future election.

Incorrect
The election was done before the world began. Paul knew this and he spoke a message to all so that the elect would hear the message and believe.

Election is the cause. Hearing and believing is the effect.

 

[37818]

Election is the cause.

No. The election is the result.
2 Corinthians 13:5-6, ". . . Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. . . ."
2 Peter 1:10, ". . . Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: . . ."

Unless one's election is a matter of having been saved neither instruction would be non-sense.

 

[Van]

Correct


Incorrect
The election was done before the world began. Paul knew this and he spoke a message to all so that the elect would hear the message and believe.

Election is the cause. Hearing and believing is the effect.

Note the absence of any citation. The "incorrect" claim is pure fiction. In order that we might win so addresses the future saving of souls.

1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak; I have become all things to all people, so that I may by all means save some.​

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Here the false claim is made that God gave everyone that will be saved to Christ before creation is made.

You call it false but produce no evidence that it iis so. Why not read my post again and try to make a reasoned critique?

Does having the desire that all given to Christ will have eternal life say everyone has already been given? That is the claim and obviously is false.

Christ came to do the Father's will (John 6:38). Are you suggesting that He failed? What I have said is that those given to Christ were given to Him before He came from heaven. Look at the tenses.

John 10:29 refers to those individuals already given to Christ, so non-germane.

All those who will be saved have been given by the Father to the Son to redeem, which He has done.

John 6:40 means those who see and believes will have eternal life. They are chosen after they believe.

Only if verse 40 contradicts verse 39.

Lastly John 10:26 is misrepresented. Here is the NKJV: “But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you." The idea of people being "of" My sheep refers to people open to God's word who may respond to the gospel. They are the people who make up the fields white for harvest.

You have just made this up 'Not of My sheep' means just what it says. If our Lord had said, 'you are not My sheep,' it would have suggested that everyone else was His sheep.

God utilizes our faith in the truth to make His choice of us for salvation. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

God's choice was made in eternity, whicch is what 2 Thes 2:13 says very clearly, as does Ephesians 1:4-5. Faith is the means He uses.

Drawing refers to being attracted by God's loving kindness, not compulsion.

No. God's drawing is irresistible. What He opens no one can shut and what He shuts no one can open (Revelation 3:7).

From the beginning refers to the period since creation, and not before creation.

IIn the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. God chose the Thessalonian Christiaans to be saved from that very time. Ephesians 1:4-5 indicates that it was before He created that He chose them. Titus 1:2 speaks of salvation before time began. 'Known to God from eternity are all His works' (Acts 15:18, NKJV).

 

[Van]

Pay no attention to those who post obvious falsehoods such as "are you suggesting (implying I am suggesting) Christ failed.

I addressed the tenses. You did not address my rebuttal.

How could Paul win some if everyone was already chosen? No response!

Note how some endlessly proclaim false doctrine, but cannot even understand the verses mentioned?

I have quoted lexicon after lexicon indicating the widely accepted view that drawing means attraction by lovingkindness. No rebuttal.

And again, not of My Sheep refers to those with closed minds, those not open to the good news. My views are from scripture, your views were made up in the dark ages.

Lastly did you see where this poster claims from eternity is the same as since creation. I kid you not...

 

[AustinC]

Note the absence of any citation. The "incorrect" claim is pure fiction. In order that we might win so addresses the future saving of souls.

1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak; I have become all things to all people, so that I may by all means save some.​

The "some" are the elect.
Van, if you were correct, God would not be Sovereign. Instead God would be reactionary, not knowing who the elect are until they believe. Your view would be a version of open theism, which is truly open heresy.
But, you are not correct. God chose, adopted, elected, before the foundation of the world. Those who believe are all the Father has given, just as God ordained from before the foundation of the world. Everything progresses exactly as God has ordained. Even the evil in this world is directed by the will of God. There is no rogue molecule. There is no rogue believer. Each believer is caused to believe by the Word of God speaking at exactly the appointed time.

*Acts 13:48*

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[Van]

The "some" are the elect.
Van, if you were correct, God would not be Sovereign. Instead God would be reactionary, not knowing who the elect are until they believe. Your view would be a version of open theism, which is truly open heresy.
But, you are not correct. God chose, adopted, elected, before the foundation of the world. Those who believe are all the Father has given, just as God ordained from before the foundation of the world. Everything progresses exactly as God has ordained. Even the evil in this world is directed by the will of God. There is no rogue molecule. There is no rogue believer. Each believer is caused to believe by the Word of God speaking at exactly the appointed time.

*Acts 13:48*

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

The above is yet another non-stop nonsense post.

1. Election occurs when God chooses an individual for salvation by utilizing their faith in the truth. Thus Paul's ministry is to those open to God's word.

2. God is Sovereign as He either causes or allows whatsoever to come to pass.

3. Since Calvinists say God is not the author of sin, Calvinism is a form of "open theism" and so also a claimed heresy.

4. Those born anew are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a pledge to our FUTURE adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

5. 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes anyone being chosen as a people until after they have existed as "not a people." Therefore Ephesians 1:4 refers to our corporate election, not our individual election.

6. In John 6:37 the tense of "gives" is present, not past indicating an ongoing active. Thus God did not give everyone before creation.

7. Everything progresses as God has predestined, which of course includes everything not predestined to progress as not predestined. The Bible says things happen by chance.

8. No one claimed a "rogue molecule" thus a strawman obfuscation.

9. Each believer was drawn and learned from the Father, but not all drawn learned as the 2d and 3d soils of Matthew 13 demonstrate.

 

[AustinC]

The above is yet another non-stop nonsense post.

1. Election occurs when God chooses an individual for salvation by utilizing their faith in the truth. Thus Paul's ministry is to those open to God's word.

False
Spiritually dead persons have no faith that merits God electing them. God elected his children before the foundation of the world and God chooses to save his children by grace through the gift of faith, which God gives to every one of His children.

2. God is Sovereign as He either causes or allows whatsoever to come to pass.

God is the cause of our election before the foundation of the world. God is the cause of our salvation by grace alone. God is the cause of our faith by grace alone. God is the cause of our justification by faith (which is by grace) alone.
God is the cause. Our response of belief is the effect.

3. Since Calvinists say God is not the author of sin, Calvinism is a form of "open theism" and so also a claimed heresy.

False
God ordained sin to exist in his creation and he ordained all that was, is, and is to come. God also tells you that your sin condemns you. God makes the rules, not us.
"Who are you, O' man to answer back to God..." (Romans 9:29)

4. Those born anew are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a pledge to our FUTURE adoption, the redemption of our bodies.

Our adoption is secure from before foundation of the world. To say otherwise is to deny Ephesians 1. Romans 8 also confirms this truth. You attempt to cling to one verse and ignore all others.

5. 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes anyone being chosen as a people until after they have existed as "not a people." Therefore Ephesians 1:4 refers to our corporate election, not our individual election.

False. Peter is quoting from Hosea 1 where God is saying that His elect, adopted, chosen people come from all nations, tribes and tongues. Your corporate theory is completely bogus, junk, theology.

6. In John 6:37 the tense of "gives" is present, not past indicating an ongoing active. Thus God did not give everyone before creation.

It is present to the very situation that Jesus is speaking to and it is because of what was determined before the foundation of the world. Stop trying to reduce God's Sovereignty.

7. Everything progresses as God has predestined, which of course includes everything not predestined to progress as not predestined. The Bible says things happen by chance.

Nothing happens by chance. Perhaps you misspoke here.

8. No one claimed a "rogue molecule" thus a strawman obfuscation.

I brought it up, stating that there are no rogue molecules. God moves his creation exactly as He wills.

9. Each believer was drawn and learned from the Father, but not all drawn learned as the 2d and 3d soils of Matthew 13 demonstrate.

The shallow soil and weed infested are not and never were believers. They were followers and disciples (like Judas) who are destined for destruction.

 

[Van]

False
Spiritually dead persons have no faith that merits God electing them. God elected his children before the foundation of the world and God chooses to save his children by grace through the gift of faith, which God gives to every one of His children.


God is the cause of our election before the foundation of the world. God is the cause of our salvation by grace alone. God is the cause of our faith by grace alone. God is the cause of our justification by faith (which is by grace) alone.
God is the cause. Our response of belief is the effect.


False
God ordained sin to exist in his creation and he ordained all that was, is, and is to come. God also tells you that your sin condemns you. God makes the rules, not us.
"Who are you, O' man to answer back to God..." (Romans 9:29)


Our adoption is secure from before foundation of the world. To say otherwise is to deny Ephesians 1. Romans 8 also confirms this truth. You attempt to cling to one verse and ignore all others.


False. Peter is quoting from Hosea 1 where God is saying that His elect, adopted, chosen people come from all nations, tribes and tongues. Your corporate theory is completely bogus, junk, theology.


It is present to the very situation that Jesus is speaking to and it is because of what was determined before the foundation of the world. Stop trying to reduce God's Sovereignty.


Nothing happens by chance. Perhaps you misspoke here.


I brought it up, stating that there are no rogue molecules. God moves his creation exactly as He wills.


The shallow soil and weed infested are not and never were believers. They were followers and disciples (like Judas) who are destined for destruction.

1) Did anyone say the lost person's faith "merits" salvation? Nope
2) To repeat, our election before the foundation of the world is corporate. This position was ignored.
3) Here the absurd claim is God predestined whatsoever comes to pass, but is not the author of sin. Go figure...
4) Again, our "adoption" the redemption of our bodies is future.
5) 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes individual election before we were once not a people.
6) You are reducing God's Sovereignty by rewriting His word. John 6:37 says God gives people to Christ in the present tense, thus all were not given before creation.
7) Ditto, you are reducing God's Sovereignty by claiming God's word does not say things happen by chance.
8) God is sovereign, and His allowance of chance demonstrates His Sovereignty.
9) Ditto yet again, the 2d and 3d soils received the gospel, and thus they believed in at least part of it. To claim a person receives the gospel with joy, yet does not believe any part of it is just another absurd argument.

 

[AustinC]

1) Did anyone say the lost person's faith "merits" salvation? Nope
2) To repeat, our election before the foundation of the world is corporate. This position was ignored.
3) Here the absurd claim is God predestined whatsoever comes to pass, but is not the author of sin. Go figure...
4) Again, our "adoption" the redemption of our bodies is future.
5) 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes individual election before we were once not a people.
6) You are reducing God's Sovereignty by rewriting His word. John 6:37 says God gives people to Christ in the present tense, thus all were not given before creation.
7) Ditto, you are reducing God's Sovereignty by claiming God's word does not say things happen by chance.
8) God is sovereign, and His allowance of chance demonstrates His Sovereignty.
9) Ditto yet again, the 2d and 3d soils received the gospel, and thus they believed in at least part of it. To claim a person receives the gospel with joy, yet does not believe any part of it is just another absurd argument.

I responded to each of your points and showed you your error. There is no need to restate your error over and over again.

 

[Van]

I responded to each of your points and showed you your error. There is no need to restate your error over and over again.

Your response was non-germane
You addressed faith meriting salvation. Not my view.
All your responses did not address my view, but addressed strawmen of your own construction..

 

[Van]

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will follow My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our dwelling with him.

1) Everyone who actually loves Christ, will follow His word.
2) Those who actually love Christ will be loved by God the Father.
3) Both the Father and the Son will indwell everyone who actually loves Christ.

So faith in the Gospel of Christ includes heart-felt, deep seated, love for Christ and all He stands for, salvation, forgiveness, justice, and obedience to our God and Lord, Christ Jesus.

 

[AustinC]

Your response was non-germane
You addressed faith meriting salvation. Not my view.
All your responses did not address my view, but addressed strawmen of your own construction..

You claim it's not your view, yet it's the view you teach. You need to own it.

 

[Van]

You claim it's not your view, yet it's the view you teach. You need to own it.

You need to address my actual positions, and not you false assertions devoid of quotes.

Note the ploy of avoiding the topic and turning the discussion to my behavior. This is the sin qua non of false teachers defending the indefensible.

 

[AustinC]

You need to address my actual positions, and not you false assertions devoid of quotes.

Note the ploy of avoiding the topic and turning the discussion to my behavior. This is the sin qua non of false teachers defending the indefensible.

I have addressed your actual positions. You reject your actual position and try to twist it in an attempt to whitewash your actual position.

Van, you are dead wrong in your teaching. You have been shown your error for years now and yet you keep coming back to push your error.

 

[Van]

I have addressed your actual positions. You reject your actual position and try to twist it in an attempt to whitewash your actual position.

Van, you are dead wrong in your teaching. You have been shown your error for years now and yet you keep coming back to push your error.

Yet another "taint so" post devoid of specifics, just generalizations. Go figure...
And note how my behavior and not the biblical positions presented are addressed.

 

[Van]

Condensed Version of Opening Post:

1) All that hear and understand the gospel have opportunity for salvation.
2) All that hear, understand and learn are given to Christ
3) All given to Christ are saved and will be raised up on the last day.

To be given to Christ refers to God choosing to transfer an individual whose faith God has credited as righteous faith, from the realm of darkness into the marvelous light of the Kingdom of His Beloved Son. This spiritual relocation is referred to in scripture using several terms. For example, in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 1 Peter 1:2, the transfer into Christ's spiritual body is said to be the sanctification by the Spirit or sanctifying work of the Spirit. To sanctify refers to being set apart for God's purpose in these usages. Another term used to describe the same relocation, is baptism, as in Romans 6:3 where individuals are baptized into Christ. Yet another is the term "called" as in called you out of darkness into His marvelous light, 1 Peter 2:9. Lastly Colossians 1:13 plainly and clearly refers to the relocation as transferred.

Where are our human spirits before the transfer? In Adam.
Where are our human spirits after the transfer? In Christ.

 

[Van]

Yet another term used to refer to God transferring an individual chosen and set apart in Christ is "believes in (into) Him. See John 3:16. The idea is if God credits a person's faith as righteous faith, God then sets the person apart in Christ. Thus the person is said to have believed into Him or believing into Him.

 

[Van]

John 6:37 (NASB95)
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

The tense of Father gives Me is present, thus refers to an ongoing activity, not something completed before creation.

Will come to Me refers to a future arrival into Christ's spiritual body, so the action of the Father precedes entry into Christ.

The one coming (in the present tense) to Me refers to those who will arrive and enter

And these Christ will never cast out, thus once saved, always saved.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Condensed Version of Opening Post:

1) All that hear and understand the gospel have opportunity for salvation.

Do you think repentance might come into this somewhere? How about faith? Understanding something is not the same as believing it, and believing is not the same as repenting (Acts of the Apostles 8:13, 21).

2) All that hear, understand and learn are given to Christ

So is there some sort of exam to show that one has really understood and learned?. I know you are referencing John 6:45, but our Lord was using the verse to reference Isaiah 54:13, which is pure grace.

3) All given to Christ are saved and will be raised up on the last day.

This is true, but not in the way you think it is.

To be given to Christ refers to God choosing to transfer an individual whose faith God has credited as righteous faith, from the realm of darkness into the marvelous light of the Kingdom of His Beloved Son.

Romans 9:33 says, speaking of Christ, 'And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.' So one believes, but then has no idea whether God is going to credit one's faith as righteousness! 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, subject to God overruling and sending you off to hell!'

This spiritual relocation is referred to in scripture using several terms. For example, in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 1 Peter 1:2, the transfer into Christ's spiritual body is said to be the sanctification by the Spirit or sanctifying work of the Spirit.

Or, more accurately, those two verses have nothing to say about any 'spiritual location' but refer to the Father's election in eternity.

Another term used to describe the same relocation, is baptism, as in Romans 6:3 where individuals are baptized into Christ.

Can someone really be baptized into Christ subject to God the Father not overruling? I don't think so.

Yet another is the term "called" as in called you out of darkness into His marvelous light, 1 Peter 2:9. Lastly Colossians 1:13 plainly and clearly refers to the relocation as transferred.

Again, this is totally artificial. We were given to Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) and He has done everything necessary to save us. "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory...." (John 17:24). There is no question of any of them being lost.

Where are our human spirits before the transfer? In Adam.
Where are our human spirits after the transfer? In Christ.

Where are our human spirits before we repent and believe? In Adam.
Where are our human spirits after we repent and believe? In Christ.
No need to make it complicated.