Agree, see post #20!
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All There Is About Parousia
- Thread starter John of Japan
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The whole counsel of God needs to be considered.
While preterists require a raw literal meaning be applied to "shortly", "quickly" They are not so narrow in their hermeneutic of "every eye" or of "in like manner":
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
They saw him with their eyes visibly ascend in a body into heaven.
He will return "in like manner".
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
So adding these ingredients to the parousia passages of 1 Thessalonians 2:19 and 1 John 2:28 then we do indeed have a future bodily and visible return of Jesus Christ to earth as the full meaning of parousia.
HankD
prophecy70
Active Member
Isaiah 19:1
A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.
Do you believe this is a physical coming in this passage?
The Hebrew word used is ū·ḇa and is used around 50 other times as a physical coming.
Why couldn't we argue the OT comings are physical just based on the word they use?
So we need hammer out Parousia, but when we argued the phrase "this generation", it meant race in this chapter but no where else in the NT.
A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.
Do you believe this is a physical coming in this passage?
The Hebrew word used is ū·ḇa and is used around 50 other times as a physical coming.
Why couldn't we argue the OT comings are physical just based on the word they use?
So we need hammer out Parousia, but when we argued the phrase "this generation", it meant race in this chapter but no where else in the NT.
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prophecy70
Active Member
Well then its not based on the word, its still based on preconceived thinking of the second coming, that Jesus has Flesh so therefor his coming has to be literal and physical.
Do you remember the visitors to Abraham on the way to warn Lot?
What “form” were all three?
Was not one worshiped?
prophecy70
Active Member
What about it?
You did not respond to the questions?
Again check the passages in post #22 where we are explicitly told that his return will be both visible and in his body.
HankD
Again, this all goes back to one simply, unassailable fact - JESUS HAS NOT YET PHYSICALLY RETURNED!
No preterist argument can touch that FACT! That fact completely kills full preterism! There's simply no substitute for the coming physical return of Jesus, in great power & glory, to be seen by all!
That physical, visible return will be His parousia. Nothing else has or will fulfill that prophecy.
Sorry, preterists, your doctrine is false. All your chatter will not replace the actual prophesied events, which have yet to occur.Jesus' prophecies in the Olivet Discourse and in the Revelation are not "figurative/ symbolic/metaphorical", but are of ACTUAL EVENTS, which will occur. Now, why seemingly-intelligent people can believe those events have already happened is beyond me. HISTORY WOULD NOT HAVE MISSED THEM, nor would the world have continued on in the same mannet it has, before and after 70 AD.
""PRETERISM - PHONY AS A FORD CORVETTE!""
No preterist argument can touch that FACT! That fact completely kills full preterism! There's simply no substitute for the coming physical return of Jesus, in great power & glory, to be seen by all!
That physical, visible return will be His parousia. Nothing else has or will fulfill that prophecy.
Sorry, preterists, your doctrine is false. All your chatter will not replace the actual prophesied events, which have yet to occur.Jesus' prophecies in the Olivet Discourse and in the Revelation are not "figurative/ symbolic/metaphorical", but are of ACTUAL EVENTS, which will occur. Now, why seemingly-intelligent people can believe those events have already happened is beyond me. HISTORY WOULD NOT HAVE MISSED THEM, nor would the world have continued on in the same mannet it has, before and after 70 AD.
""PRETERISM - PHONY AS A FORD CORVETTE!""
The LORD, Jehovah, and his Angel companions, had physical bodies. They appeared as ordinary human beings. Not glorious. They had their feet washed, they could eat.
Just like the risen Lord Jesus Christ.
Also man was created in the image of God.
And, of course, the church is the body of Christ. Ephesians 1:22.
prophecy70
Active Member
How far are you taking in like manner?
Luke 13:34
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
That uses the same word, is that the exact same way? So will he return just to the few watching him? Or on a horse?
They are waiting a long time.
I am not a full preterist, so if I am wrong here this could be talking about the final Judgment. Although I don't have enough evidence to believe that. What i'm sure of is the Discourse is past.
prophecy70
Active Member
Im sorry you don't understand how I see it.
Prophecy is often progressive - the full details are not given in the first statement of a prophecy. In the letters, & in Revelation we have very full details of Jesus' return. Certainly the angels told them Jesus would come in like manner but the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth. That all truth is recorded in the letters.
Likewise we cannot build a doctrine on a single word like parousia. Every occurrence has a context. Is it necessarily his final coming for resurrection & judgment, or his coming to judge the Jews who reject both himself & the Apostles' Gospel command? Or could it be as Jesus told his disciples:
Jhn 14:3 - “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
probably coming when they die to take them to be with him in glory, as Stephen prayed: 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
How many other words are translated "come?" Context is important.
No its not the same "in like manner" is not used. "every eye shall see Him" is not used.
A Visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ is necessary to fulfill scripture not the Roman General Titus.
HankD.
No it was not just like the risen Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ was born of a woman.
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
He also had the scars of the nails and the wound of the sword in His resurrected body proving it was the same body He died in, now resurrected.
HankD
And, already this thread has strayed from the OP, which is an examination of the semantic range of parousia. This is an extremely important study for the meaning of the 2nd Coming of Christ because it occurs in that meaning no fewer than 17 times in the NT. What must be determined in this context is the exact meaning of parousia when it refers to the 2nd Coming. The Hebrew is only relevant if one can prove that the LXX translated the original Hebrew word with parousia.
OK but Kittlels indicates there are Greek documents (in one of three major classifications - the one i gave was under "In Hellenism") apart from the LXX that use the word parousia that's why i posted the reference.
Sorry
HankD
And again, what verse or passage suggest to us other than a physical literal appearance and coming in the NT? Preterists seem really mute on that!
I didn't feel you were derailing the thread with your Kittel post. In fact, it reminded me that I bought TDNT second hand recently and need to consult it myself for this thread.
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