All things work together for good...

[DaveXR650]

You do realize that there is a difference between God determining all things and God foreknowing all things, or at least I hope you do.

There is a difference, but only in the motivation and intent of God. If God knows from before the time of Adam that in 1980 Bill was going to attack Ted with an axe, then the fact that God is going to allow that to happen, even though he knows it is going to happen, means that it will happen or else God's foreknowledge is wrong. Therefore, I as an observer could say it is set in stone that this event will happen - it was predestined to happen. But not CAUSED by God. Bill had a free will and he wanted to do this. All this is absurd at some point but it is important in this: You cannot put up a false scenario where God is either the cause of something or else he has to wait for a free will determination of the actors. The point is anyone, not just Calvinists, have the dilemma that occurs when something happens in this world that is not according to God's will and he could have stopped it but didn't.

Now some Calvinists do take the position that God directly causes all things. But others believe there is a difference between allowing something and directly causing it. For a free will advocate, all I'm saying is that "foreknowledge" does not help. God still either allows it or not - or he didn't know it was going to happen.

 

[Silverhair]

There is a difference, but only in the motivation and intent of God. If God knows from before the time of Adam that in 1980 Bill was going to attack Ted with an axe, then the fact that God is going to allow that to happen, even though he knows it is going to happen, means that it will happen or else God's foreknowledge is wrong. Therefore, I as an observer could say it is set in stone that this event will happen - it was predestined to happen. But not CAUSED by God. Bill had a free will and he wanted to do this. All this is absurd at some point but it is important in this: You cannot put up a false scenario where God is either the cause of something or else he has to wait for a free will determination of the actors. The point is anyone, not just Calvinists, have the dilemma that occurs when something happens in this world that is not according to God's will and he could have stopped it but didn't.

Now some Calvinists do take the position that God directly causes all things. But others believe there is a difference between allowing something and directly causing it. For a free will advocate, all I'm saying is that "foreknowledge" does not help. God still either allows it or not - or he didn't know it was going to happen.

You have stated that God determines all things have you not? If He determines all things then He is the cause of all things that happen. Just as the WCF & the LBCF state. Whereas if God in His omniscience knows all things that are going to happen, even those that are done via a mans' free will then He is not the cause.
Where do you get the idea that God has to wait for some free will action to happen before He knows that it happened? That is just a red herring argument. You want to have your cake and eat it to. You want God to control all that happens but not control all that happens.

Take for example
Jer 7:30 "For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight," declares the LORD, "they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.
Jer 7:31 "They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.

If we held to the WCF & LBCF Chp 3 Sec 1
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;
That does not leave a lot of wiggle room for you argument now does it but then they try to soften the blow by adding "yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature "
This is nothing but the attempt to have their cake and eat it to. They want God to control all things but not control all things. Calvinists should pick a lane. The obvious Cognitive Dissonance of their argument is astounding.

Foreknowing what a man, via his free will, will do is not the same as determining what some man will do.

 

[DaveXR650]

Foreknowing what a man, via his free will, will do is not the same as determining what some man will do.

Do you really think it is correct to view God as sitting around knowing what is going to happen in any case and yet is unable to do anything about it? That is what your idea of bare foreknowledge is without the concept of God's ordaining whatever comes to pass.

The other idea, the idea that some Calvinists have, that God directly is causing all things causatively and directly, I believe slanders God in that it does make him the direct cause of evil.

But I think that God IS in overall control, but that he gives his creatures free will according to his plan and wisdom, and allows things to happen according to what they want to do - but, he knows all that they will do and either allows, changes, or stops any of the plans and actions of any of his creatures whenever he wants, according to his overall plans. Since he already knows all this and has already determined how this will go you can say it is all predetermined - and yet God still can not be charged with directly causing evil that his creatures do of their own free will. He did permit it.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you really think it is correct to view God as sitting around knowing what is going to happen in any case and yet is unable to do anything about it? That is what your idea of bare foreknowledge is without the concept of God's ordaining whatever comes to pass.

The other idea, the idea that some Calvinists have, that God directly is causing all things causatively and directly, I believe slanders God in that it does make him the direct cause of evil.

But I think that God IS in overall control, but that he gives his creatures free will according to his plan and wisdom, and allows things to happen according to what they want to do - but, he knows all that they will do and either allows, changes, or stops any of the plans and actions of any of his creatures whenever he wants, according to his overall plans. Since he already knows all this and has already determined how this will go you can say it is all predetermined - and yet God still can not be charged with directly causing evil that his creatures do of their own free will. He did permit it.

Dave you seem to have just a bit of confusion here. God foreknowing what will happen is not the same as Him determining or ordaining what will happen. As you rightly said God is in overall control, but that He gives His creatures free will according to His plan and wisdom, and allows things to happen according to what they want to do according to His overall plans. And I agree with that because God is omniscient so no surprises for Him. But you have to have God determine all things and that removes any since of free will and thus any since of responsibility.

You want to keep circling back to determinism or God ordaining all things but then you want to deny the obvious result of your view.

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave you seem to have just a bit of confusion here.

I do. And so did Edwards, when he wrote on this. And so do the Calvinists who try to make every minute detail caused directly by God himself. And so do you when you refuse to admit that you, and everyone who is big on free will, is in the exact same boat when it comes to trying to understand as humans, how God can make everything work out according to his will while at the same time allowing us to truly muck things up as we see fit without God's oversite. Clearly that won't work either. The OP is useful in illustrating an important point. If the exhaustive determinists are heretical, and the explanation of other types of determinism is "confused" as you say, then you are left with two choices. Do like you do and suggest that all things can somehow work together for good and at the same time God is obligated to sit by and watch us muck it all up with our sovereign free wills, or start messing around with the meanings of words as the OP does.

 

[Silverhair]

I do. And so did Edwards, when he wrote on this. And so do the Calvinists who try to make every minute detail caused directly by God himself. And so do you when you refuse to admit that you, and everyone who is big on free will, is in the exact same boat when it comes to trying to understand as humans, how God can make everything work out according to his will while at the same time allowing us to truly muck things up as we see fit without God's oversite. Clearly that won't work either. The OP is useful in illustrating an important point. If the exhaustive determinists are heretical, and the explanation of other types of determinism is "confused" as you say, then you are left with two choices. Do like you do and suggest that all things can somehow work together for good and at the same time God is obligated to sit by and watch us muck it all up with our sovereign free wills, or start messing around with the meanings of words as the OP does.

Dave I really thought that you were beyond the typical Calvinist trope. I have never even suggested that God sits back and wrings His hands as we of the free will view muck things up. For one we do not have sovereign free will as we are not sovereign but we do have a God given free will and thus can not overrule God. God is sovereign and if He see fit, and the bible shows that He has, to give man a real free will then I am quite sure that He can handle whatever we throw into the mix. Being omniscient He already knows what is coming anyway.

Now we know that God works all things for the good of those that love God. Romans 8:28 So with that in mind do you really think that God is somehow stymied by what we or non-believers do. God has a plan for His creation and He will work that plan out in the way He see fit, even using our free will choices. The only other option out there is your deterministic view where God controls all choices good or evil.

 

[DaveXR650]

God has a plan for His creation and He will work that plan out in the way He see fit, even using our free will choices.

Yep. You are starting to get it. It's his plan and your free choice. But your free choice will come about exactly as his predetermined plan says it will. That is predestination, yet not exhaustive causal determination. Whether you can see the difference or not, it's still true. You have to offer some kind of reason why what I'm saying is wrong. "Trope" is a good word, but not an argument.

 

[Silverhair]

Yep. You are starting to get it. It's his plan and your free choice. But your free choice will come about exactly as his predetermined plan says it will. That is predestination, yet not exhaustive causal determination. Whether you can see the difference or not, it's still true. You have to offer some kind of reason why what I'm saying is wrong. "Trope" is a good word, but not an argument.

It is not me just getting it, it is what I have been saying all along. It seems you are the one that is missing the clear picture. God has a plan that we see through out the bible. And yes it will be completed Those that freely trust in the Son will be saved those that reject the Son will be lost. The response of the individual man is not predestined as then it would not be a free will choice would it, it would be determined. Funny how you keep coming up with this expansive as a way to support your view. "exhaustive causal determination" is just determination.

You are still trying to conflate free choice and predestination/determinism. You can not have a determined free will choice the terms are mutually exclusive. I can give you a number of reasons why your deterministic view is wrong, it's called the bible. You have to give me a reason why your view is correct.

 

[AustinC]

Do any of these English translations say what the OP says?
Romans 8:28 — The New International Version (NIV)
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:28 — King James Version (KJV 1900)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:28 — New Living Translation (NLT)
28 And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.

Romans 8:28 — The New King James Version (NKJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:28 — New Century Version (NCV)
28 We know that in everything God works for the good of those who love him. They are the people he called, because that was his plan.

Romans 8:28 — American Standard Version (ASV)
28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:28 — 1890 Darby Bible (DARBY)
28 But we do know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to purpose.

Romans 8:28 — GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God—those whom he has called according to his plan.

Romans 8:28 — The Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God: those who are called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:28 — The New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:28 — The Lexham English Bible (LEB)
28 And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose,

Romans 8:28 — New International Reader’s Version (1998) (NIrV)
28 We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. He appointed them to be saved in keeping with his purpose.

Romans 8:28 — New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update (NASB95)
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:28 ESV - And we know that for those who… | Biblia

 

[Van]

All I would ask is for you to tell me "Do you believe God has foreknowledge of what is going to happen?"
Most of us do and if so, "Do you believe God could do something to prevent or change a future event"?
If he doesn't intervene then "Do you see how God is allowing that event to happen".
Now think: If what God is going to allow to happen is part of God's foreknowledge then it really is going to happen. There can be no other outcome. Therefore it is predestined to happen - and yet, God is not the author of the event although he allowed it.

No. It is not true that to be predestined can only be that God caused it directly. I am saying that something can be predestined that God only allowed, not caused. Assuming there are creatures involved capable of doing things. That is why God did not cause the Fall of man, or the arrival of evil, or the rebellion of angels - and yet he is and always has been completely in control of all events that are happening and will happen.

I mean, the only other alternative is that God is playing it by ear and is just as shocked at every event as the rest of us. But if you believe that you would cut out almost all the Bible.

Rather than ask me about my beliefs, why not address the topic?

Romans 8:28 (Interpretive translation)
"And we see that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose."

Here "their trust and devotion" has been added to clarify the scope of the word "all" in the verse.

The concept that sin accomplishes good is a fiction and a destructive heresy in my opinion. Paul would say, "God forbid."

 

[Van]

Do any of these English translations say what the OP says?
Romans 8:28 — The New International Version (NIV)
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:28 — King James Version (KJV 1900)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:28 — New Living Translation (NLT)
28 And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.
SNIP

No, the translations render the actual word of God differently.

For example note how both the NLT and NIV have God works or causes, whereas the KJV and interpretive version do not. The NLT and NIV have added that idea into the text. Also the NLT puts the "call" in the past, but the other three correctly put the call in the present.

The Greek word rendered "Know" actually means to see or perceive.

"All" refers to beneficial acts and attributes of the ones loving God. Only one rendering makes that clear.

Romans 8:28 (Interpretive translation)
"And we see that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose."

 

[DaveXR650]

You are still trying to conflate free choice and predestination/determinism. You can not have a determined free will choice the terms are mutually exclusive. I can give you a number of reasons why your deterministic view is wrong, it's called the bible. You have to give me a reason why your view is correct.

It's alright with me if you don't agree. But you keep making the case that the choice is between complete causal determinism and total free will. That is not the case as a 5 minute search on the internet will confirm. As for a reason, the basic starting point why the free will view is wrong is this: You cannot have a truly free choice that occurs in the future that God could reliably know about. And that is because if your choice is as free as you claim it is then you would have the freedom to change it right up until the moment you actually do it, thus rendering it impossible for anyone to know a free random decision that has truly not been made yet. Anything short of that is some level of determinism.

 

[DaveXR650]

Rather than ask me about my beliefs, why not address the topic?

The topic is being addressed. An understanding of how God is sovereignly in charge is on topic. Butchering the scripture itself is not the answer. The best answer is reading the verse as written and then believing it.

 

[Van]

The topic is being addressed. An understanding of how God is sovereignly in charge is on topic. Butchering the scripture itself is not the answer. The best answer is reading the verse as written and then believing it.

Did this poster take a position? Nope.God is sovereign in that He causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. That is not the topic. The actual meaning of Romans 8:28 is the topic. See post #31 to learn why I understand the verse this way:

Romans 8:28 (Interpretive translation)
"And we see that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose."

Remember we are to "study" to show ourselves approved..."

 

[DaveXR650]

Did this poster take a position? Nope.God is sovereign in that He causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. That is not the topic. The actual meaning of Romans 8:28 is the topic. See post #31 to learn why I understand the verse this way:

My position is that you don't make any sense when you state the above and then say that has nothing to do with the meaning of a verse that is clearly about the sovereignty of God. Instead, you begin to mess with the meaning of the text itself. Any disagreement with your interpretation is "off topic". Does it ever bother you that on a forum with the whole range of beliefs from Pelagians to hyper-Calvinists no one agrees with (or has even heard of) your interpretations of scripture? And you don't even site a reference.

 

[AustinC]

No, the translations render the actual word of God differently.

For example note how both the NLT and NIV have God works or causes, whereas the KJV and interpretive version do not. The NLT and NIV have added that idea into the text. Also the NLT puts the "call" in the past, but the other three correctly put the call in the present.

The Greek word rendered "Know" actually means to see or perceive.

"All" refers to beneficial acts and attributes of the ones loving God. Only one rendering makes that clear.

Romans 8:28 (Interpretive translation)
"And we see that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose."

Are you a Greek scholar, Van? If not, then I take your assertions with a grain of salt. But, thanks for sharing your uneducated opinion.

Romans 8:28 Greek Text Analysis

 

[AustinC]

This "interpretive translation" is pure man-centered thinking:

Romans 8:28 (Interpretive translation)

"And we see that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose."

The above translation goes against grace and glorifies the works of man.

Instead what we read in scripture is this:
*Romans 8:28*
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

*Ephesians 2:10*
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

*Revelation 5:2,5*
And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?”

And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”

*Daniel 11:27,29*
And as for the two kings, their hearts shall be bent on doing evil. They shall speak lies at the same table, but to no avail, for the end is yet to be at the time appointed.

“At the time appointed he shall return and come into the south, but it shall not be this time as it was before.

Jesus has the scroll of destiny. He determines our ways, we do not cause God to act on our behalf as a reaction to our good works.

 

[Van]

My position is that you don't make any sense when you state the above and then say that has nothing to do with the meaning of a verse that is clearly about the sovereignty of God. Instead, you begin to mess with the meaning of the text itself. Any disagreement with your interpretation is "off topic". Does it ever bother you that on a forum with the whole range of beliefs from Pelagians to hyper-Calvinists no one agrees with (or has even heard of) your interpretations of scripture? And you don't even site a reference.

What nonsense. God is sovereign because He causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass makes no sense to you. That doctrine is bedrock Christianity. Did I mess with the actual intended meaning of the text? Nope as I presented a far more accurate translation. Feel free to disagree by offering your understanding of the text. That would not be off topic. My studied understandings are supported from lexicons, commentaries, concordances and reverse interlinears.

 

[Van]

This "interpretive translation" is pure man-centered thinking:


Romans 8:28 (Interpretive translation)
"And we see that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose."

The above translation goes against grace and glorifies the works of man.

1) Why is all their trust and devotion working together for good? Because God and God alone is calling them into His Kingdom. Is this man-centered or is this God centered? God centered.

2) People are being called, but it is God who is doing the calling. Does salvation depend on the one who wills or the one who calls? The one who calls, Romans 9:16.

Why do posters post disinformation rather than address specifics? Because they are unstudied or provincial.
What is the verb tense in this verse, past or present? Present, thus the people are being called in the here and now, and not sometime long in the past. Thus the ones being called is accurate but the ones who are called is ambiguous at best.

We have perceived (in the past and now in the present) that for the ones being called (in the present) all is working together (in the present). Why hide the present day conditional election in ambiguity? Why hide that they loved God before they were called?
Why mess with God's word?

 

[Van]

Are you a Greek scholar, Van? If not, then I take your assertions with a grain of salt. But, thanks for sharing your uneducated opinion.

Romans 8:28 Greek Text Analysis

LOL, this supports the interpretive translation
Romans 8:28 (Interpretive translation)
"And we see that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose."