All things work together for good...

[KenH]

Sure you are. You demand that God not be the one who determines who will or will not be His adopted child. That is the very definition of one who questions the sovereignty of God. You want to be in control. You want a will that is free from God's determinative will. That is the very definition of one who questions God's sovereignty.

So, you come up with a story that what I point to in the Bible as evidence of God's sovereignty, is...in your words... philosophy rather than God's holy word.

Salvation has to be all of God. Just look at the state of what is called culturally "Christianity". There are all sorts and varieties of what people call "the gospel" - Baptists have their version of the gospel, Methodists have their version of the gospel, Presbyterians have their version of the gospel, the Church of Christ has its version of the gospel, the Assembly of God has its version of the gospel, Pentecostals have their version of the gospel, Catholics have their version of the gospel, Lutherans have their version of the gospel, and on and on and on. If God's elect were left on their own to decipher what is the gospel of Christ commissioned by Christ and preached by the apostles in the first century A.D., they would never know if they had arrived at the gospel of Christ or a false gospel. Salvation has to be all of God or else we would be all be swimming around in the ocean of life without any certainty or security.

 

[Silverhair]

Sure you are. You demand that God not be the one who determines who will or will not be His adopted child. That is the very definition of one who questions the sovereignty of God. You want to be in control. You want a will that is free from God's determinative will. That is the very definition of one who questions God's sovereignty.

So, you come up with a story that what I point to in the Bible as evidence of God's sovereignty, is...in your words... philosophy rather than God's holy word.

Austin you come up with the same argument all the time and you have been shown over and over again that your philosophy is wrong but that is OK as God has for some reason determined that you think that way. Why He does it I do not know but that is just the way it is. As a result you really do not have the ability to have an independent thought because, as you say, all is controlled by Gods' deterministic will.

Perhaps He is just letting you walk down this errant path for a while so that when He does cause the light of truth to shine in your life you will be more receptive to it.

 

[Silverhair]

Salvation has to be all of God. Just look at the state of what is called culturally "Christianity". There are all sorts and varieties of what people call "the gospel" - Baptists have their version of the gospel, Methodists have their version of the gospel, Presbyterians have their version of the gospel, the Church of Christ has its version of the gospel, the Assembly of God has its version of the gospel, Pentecostals have their version of the gospel, Catholics have their version of the gospel, Lutherans have their version of the gospel, and on and on and on. If God's elect were left on their own to decipher what is the gospel of Christ commissioned by Christ and preached by the apostles in the first century A.D., they would never know if they had arrived at the gospel of Christ or a false gospel. Salvation has to be all of God or else we would be all be swimming around in the ocean of life without any certainty or security.

Ken you missed a couple of versions, Calvinists have their version of the gospel and the bible has the only true version of the gospel message and means of salvation.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

 

[Van]

Yes, Van, you did mess with the intended actual meaning of the text. I provided many translations from true Greek scholars and translation teams. None of them translate the text as you have. Thus, yes, you have messed with the intended actual meaning of the text.

You provided numerious mistranslations!!

 

[Van]

It's obvious that you imagine it that way, Van.

Yet another post addressing me, thus a fallacious argument.

 

[Van]

The exhaustive determinists think everything that happens is predestined by God, and we should accept it as God's will. This is a destructive heresy because we are to strive to follow Christ, and when we fail, to confess our misses, and redouble our effort to improve our walk with Christ. Our choices to trespass are not predestined.

The verse that says "all things work together for good for those who love God and have been called according to His purpose," can be understood in at least two ways. God predestined all the sins and trespasses of born anew believers or the alternate understanding, i.e. all things are not predestined by God. The actual idea is that "all things work together for good" refers to the end result of our life, which is eternal life with Christ, rather than the result of sin in fallen humanity.

Here is an interpretive translation:
And we see that to the ones loving God all is working together for good for the ones being called according to His purpose.

Was does the "all" refer to? Their actions based on loving God? Is this a reference to their heavenly reward? Or is the idea that it is all good for those being called? Obviously the idea that everything that happens is good once saved denies reality. Do we really think our choice to trespass is good, or only that the result in being called means the result of our miss will not cause us to lose our blessing of salvation in the afterlife?

 

[Van]

One of the systemic or chronic problems with our English translation of the New Testament is translating the Greek word (pas) which means "all" as "all things" when something less than everything imaginable is in view. For example, when we see "with God all things are possible" it might be more accurately and contextually translated as "with God all salvations are possible."

The word salvations is in italics to indicate it has been added to the text to clarify the scope of "all" in this context.

 

[AustinC]

You provided numerious mistranslations!!

First they are translations provided by a team of scholars. Second, you don't even read Greek. How would you know? Come on Van. At some point you have to admit that you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to translation work. Others here who are much better at Greek and Hebrew have tried to correct you.

Van, it is your translation that is a mistranslation.

 

[Van]

First they are translations provided by a team of scholars. Second, you don't even read Greek. How would you know? Come on Van. At some point you have to admit that you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to translation work. Others here who are much better at Greek and Hebrew have tried to correct you.

Van, it is your translation that is a mistranslation.

Yet another fallacious argument devoid of any support for the obvious mistranslations. See post 31.

 

[AustinC]

Austin you come up with the same argument all the time and you have been shown over and over again that your philosophy is wrong but that is OK as God has for some reason determined that you think that way. Why He does it I do not know but that is just the way it is. As a result you really do not have the ability to have an independent thought because, as you say, all is controlled by Gods' deterministic will.

Perhaps He is just letting you walk down this errant path for a while so that when He does cause the light of truth to shine in your life you will be more receptive to it.

You have certainly held your man-centered ground, Sliverhair. I have provided 6 pages of scripture to show you the Sovereign work of God in choosing, predestining, electing, and adopting. That's a lot of scripture from both the old and new testament, but you just ignore it all and hold firm in glorifying man. Yes, I recognize you turn your back on God's sovereignty and embrace man's power. It does seem you are unrepentant of that attitude.

 

[AustinC]

Yet another fallacious argument devoid of any support for the obvious mistranslations. See post 31.

I have seen all the posts. No matter how much you mistranslate, it will never become a correct translation, Van.

 

[Van]

I have seen all the posts. No matter how much you mistranslate, it will never become a correct translation, Van.

Now we get the personal incredulity fallacious argument. They just keep coming.

 

[AustinC]

Now we get the personal incredulity fallacious argument. They just keep coming.

Van, your translation has been addressed and found to be poor by a number of people. The mistranslation you provided has been addressed and shown to be wrong. Is there any reason for this thread to continue or perhaps the moderators can close it now?

 

[Van]

Note, the translations (NLT, NIV, KJV and Interpretate version) render the actual word of God differently.

For example note how both the NLT and NIV have God works or causes, whereas the KJV and interpretive version do not. The NLT and NIV have added that idea and those words into the text. Also the NLT puts the "call" in the past, but the other three correctly put the call in the present.

The Greek word rendered "Know" actually means to have seen or perceived in the past.

"All" refers to beneficial acts and attributes of the ones loving God. Only one rendering makes that clear.

Romans 8:28 (Interpretive translation)
"And we know that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose."

 

[Van]

Van, your translation has been addressed and found to be poor by a number of people. The mistranslation you provided has been addressed and shown to be wrong. Is there any reason for this thread to continue or perhaps the moderators can close it now?

Again, no mention of the words added, and the unwarranted expansion of the intended scope of "all."

 

[Van]

Romans 8:28 (NIV)
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who [fn] have been called according to his purpose.

NIV footnote: Or "all things work together for good to those who love God, or "that is all things God works together with those who love Him to bring about what is good...."

The verse does not say "in all things God works for the good of those who love Him!!!!!!!!!! A galactic mistranslation of the text. Ditto for the third option found in the footnote.

Here is an unambiguous interpretative translation:
Romans 8:28 (Interpretive translation)
"And we know that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose."

 

[AustinC]

Romans 8:28 (NIV)
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who [fn] have been called according to his purpose.

NIV footnote: Or "all things work together for good to those who love God, or "that is all things God works together with those who love Him to bring about what is good...."

The verse does not say "in all things God works for the good of those who love Him!!!!!!!!!! A galactic mistranslation of the text. Ditto for the third option found in the footnote.

Here is an unambiguous interpretative translation:
Romans 8:28 (Interpretive translation)
"And we know that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose."

You realize that this repost has been addressed a handful of times and your error has been addressed.

Continual restatement of an error will not make it correct.

 

[Van]

You realize that this repost has been addressed a handful of times and your error has been addressed.

Continual restatement of an error will not make it correct.

LOL, now we get material false statements. This ploy of claiming something of substance has been posted in the past, but not linking to the claimed substance is disingenuous to say the least.

Romans 8:28 (NIV)
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who [fn] have been called according to his purpose.

NIV footnote: Or "all things work together for good to those who love God, or "that is all things God works together with those who love Him to bring about what is good...."​

The verse does not say "in all things God works for the good of those who love Him!!!!!!!!!! A galactic mistranslation of the text. Ditto for the third option found in the footnote.

Here is an unambiguous interpretative translation:
Romans 8:28 (Interpretive translation)
"And we know that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose."

 

[Silverhair]

You have certainly held your man-centered ground, Sliverhair. I have provided 6 pages of scripture to show you the Sovereign work of God in choosing, predestining, electing, and adopting. That's a lot of scripture from both the old and new testament, but you just ignore it all and hold firm in glorifying man. Yes, I recognize you turn your back on God's sovereignty and embrace man's power. It does seem you are unrepentant of that attitude.

Six pages of your cherry pick verses that you think support your view and which I have deal with before but you do seem to ignore that as per usual. I hold firm to what the bible says just as you hold firm to your man-made philosophy. You refuse to accept that biblical reality that God has given man a free will so as to have the ability to make real choices regarding their salvation. You on the other hand hold to your exhaustive determinism which as I said before removes all ability to make any choices so in reality you are no better than a puppet on a string.

You are correct in one point, I will not change my mind about the truth of scripture which as you have so clearly shown means that I actually have a true God given free will.

 

[AustinC]

Six pages of your cherry pick verses that you think support your view and which I have deal with before but you do seem to ignore that as per usual. I hold firm to what the bible says just as you hold firm to your man-made philosophy. You refuse to accept that biblical reality that God has given man a free will so as to have the ability to make real choices regarding their salvation. You on the other hand hold to your exhaustive determinism which as I said before removes all ability to make any choices so in reality you are no better than a puppet on a string.

You are correct in one point, I will not change my mind about the truth of scripture which as you have so clearly shown means that I actually have a true God given free will.

You mean the full passages I provided as "cherry picked"...

Face it, Sliverhair, you reject the God who declares himself sovereign over all areas of your life and you prefer the God who cooperates with you as the co-ruler.