All things work together for good...

[Van]

The exhaustive determinists think everything that happens is predestined by God, and we should accept it as God's will. This is a destructive heresy because we are to strive to follow Christ, and when we fail, to confess our misses, and redouble our effort to improve our walk with Christ. Our choices to trespass are not predestined.

The verse that says "all things work together for good for those who love God and have been called according to His purpose," can be understood in at least two ways. God predestined all the sins and trespasses of born anew believers or the alternate understanding, i.e. all things are not predestined by God. The actual idea is that "all things work together for good" refers to the end result of our life, which is eternal life with Christ, rather than the result of sin in fallen humanity.

Here is an interpretive translation:
And we see that to the ones loving God all is working together for good for the ones being called according to His purpose.

Was does the "all" refer to? Their actions based on loving God? Is this a reference to their heavenly reward? Or is the idea that it is all good for those being called? Obviously the idea that everything that happens is good once saved denies reality. Do we really think our choice to trespass is good, or only that the result in being called means the result of our miss will not cause us to lose our blessing of salvation in the afterlife?

 

[KenH]

redouble our effort

A major flaw in the teaching of all conditionalists. They base being saved and staying saved on human effort. The Bible teaches that all of salvation - from the beginning to the new heavens and the new earth - is based totally on Christ ALONE.

 

[Van]

Yet another off topic post. Did anyone say we save ourselves? Nope. So a disinformation post to derail the thread. How long must we suffer this travail.

 

[DaveXR650]

This is a destructive heresy because we are to strive to follow Christ, and when we fail, to confess our misses, and redouble our effort to improve our walk with Christ. Our choices to trespass are not predestined.

We are to follow Christ, confess our misses and so on. But even the most deterministic of deterministic theology agrees with that. In other words, even if everything is determined, then your effort to follow Christ is also part of that. If something was determined to happen - the fact that you prayed for that to happen was just as determined and just as important. Even in the case of sinful actions that fit God's overall plan, like what Joseph's brothers did to him - God may have made them sell him instead of killing him because of further plans for Joseph, but their hatred and choice to do all that was really their own and their responsibility.

 

[Van]

We are to follow Christ, confess our misses and so on. But even the most deterministic of deterministic theology agrees with that. In other words, even if everything is determined, then your effort to follow Christ is also part of that. If something was determined to happen - the fact that you prayed for that to happen was just as determined and just as important. Even in the case of sinful actions that fit God's overall plan, like what Joseph's brothers did to him - God may have made them sell him instead of killing him because of further plans for Joseph, but their hatred and choice to do all that was really their own and their responsibility.

Is God the author of sin. The WCF says God is not. But Hyper-Calvinists say yes. What is your position. And if "all things" do not work together for good, because God is not the author of sin, what is your objection?

 

[DaveXR650]

No. God is not the author of sin. I'm just saying that he knows about original sin and each individual sin before it ever happened or happens. He also not only knew about it but had the power to stop what was going to happen before it happened. That is NOT the same as saying God directly causes all things including sin. The WCF tries to keep that in mind, to their credit.

So in the sense I just described you have set up a false choice. God is NOT the author of sin, AND everything IS predestined, because God has either directly determined or has allowed (within his sovereign will) for a thing to happen. Once he has decided for a thing to happen it will and must happen. And since God does not go along like we do, in the present, while constantly learning, you then could say he ALWAYS knew the right answer to what was going to happen. Since God is never wrong then it has to happen that way - so it is predetermined. Is it all a head game? Yup.

 

[Van]

One of the systemic or chronic problems with our English translation of the New Testament is translating the Greek word (pas) which means "all" as "all things" when something less than everything imaginable is in view. For example, when we see "with God all things are possible" it might be more accurately and contextually translated as "with God all salvations are possible."

The word salvations is in italics to indicate it has been added to the text to clarify the scope of "all" in this context.

 

[canadyjd]

……
The verse that says "all things work together for good for those who love God and have been called according to His purpose," can be understood….. The actual idea is that "all things work together for good" refers to the end result of our life, which is eternal life with Christ, rather than the result of sin in fallen humanity.

Here is an interpretive translation:
And we see that to the ones loving God all is working together for good for the ones being called according to His purpose. …..?

Another thread distorting the Word of God to promote human ability over God’s sovereignty..

Notice the oft repeated phrase “here’s an interpretive translation.”

[Snip]

Peace to you

 

[Van]

No. God is not the author of sin.

So in the sense I just described you have set up a false choice. God is NOT the author of sin, AND everything IS predestined, because God has either directly determined or has allowed (within his sovereign will) for a thing to happen. Once he has decided for a thing to happen it will and must happen. And since God does not go along like we do, in the present, while constantly learning, you then could say he ALWAYS knew the right answer to what was going to happen. Since God is never wrong then it has to happen that way - so it is predetermined. Is it all a head game? Yup.

You almost actually answered my questions! God does indeed allow things to happen for which he did not author or predestine. But when you say God allows sin means He predestines sin that makes Him the author of that predestined sin. Full Stop and I am not playing head games.

 

[Van]

Another thread distorting the Word of God to promote human ability over God’s sovereignty..
Notice the oft repeated phrase “here’s an interpretive translation.”
Please Van, give us your expert analysis of the Biblical Greek in the passage!!! Please oh Please!!
Peace to you

People who actually engage in Bible Study, post in this forum.

One of the aspects of bible study is to put the verse being studied in our own words to crystalize our understanding of the verse. This is basis Bible Study 101. No claim that our understanding reflects a Doctorate in Greek or Hebrew studies.

"all things work together for good for those who love God and have been called according to His purpose," is ambiguous and affords some to claim sin results in good. However, "And we see that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose." Here "their trust and devotion" has been added to clarify the scope of the word "all" in the verse.​

 

[unprofitable]

People who actually engage in Bible Study, post in this forum.

One of the aspects of bible study is to put the verse being studied in our own words to crystalize our understanding of the verse. This is basis Bible Study 101. No claim that our understanding reflects a Doctorate in Greek or Hebrew studies.

"all things work together for good for those who love God and have been called according to His purpose," is ambiguous and affords some to claim sin results in good. However, "And we see that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working togethe

r for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose." Here "their trust and devotion" has been added to clarify the scope of the word "all" in the verse.​

Christ gives us the basis for Paul's comments in Romans. John 15:15...for ALL THINGS I have heard of my Father, I have made known unto you". The "all things" is the gospel of the kingdom of God and his righteousness. (Matt 6:33) It is New Covenant teachings of the body of Christ, the kingdom of God. ALL THINGS work together to the preservation of the true saints of God as we see in Matthew 16:18. It is the body of Christ as the kingdom of God being preserved as a bride people. 1 Kings 8:56 tells us Blessed be the Lord, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to ALL that he promised: there HATH NOT FAILED ONE WORD of ALL HIS PROMISE (ALL THINGS), which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

Who then are those that love the Lord and to whom the promises (ALL THINGS) belong? Christ said in John 14:21, "He that hath my commandments and keepeth them (Jeremiah 11:6, John 3:16), is he that LOVETH ME. The commandments or New Covenant was given to the Church at Jeruslem. Outside the body of Christ, you neither can receive nor keep covenant with God. ALL THINGS work together that the body of Christ might not only abundantly prosper (John 17:3) but also that the kingdom of God, the everlasting kingdom with the everlasting covenant, might not perish. NOT ONE WORD WILL FAIL

 

[canadyjd]

People who actually engage in Bible Study, post in this forum.

One of the aspects of bible study is to put the verse being studied in our own words to crystalize our understanding of the verse. This is basis Bible Study 101….

Your Bible study 101 is very different than mine.

I don’t rewrite the passage in my own words, I attempt to understand the words of the passage in the context it was written.

God’s sovereignty, specifically the work of God Holy Spirit, is a major theme in all of Romans and also Chapter 8.

The passage you are addressing “all things work…” isn’t speaking of sin but of persecution. God is using persecution of believers to accomplish His will in the world.

Believers must have felt separated from God because of the persecution they suffered, perhaps thinking they caused the persecution because of sin.

Paul assured them nothing can separate them from the love of Christ.

You rewrite the passage to focus on sin while Paul was focused on the love of Christ in the midst of persecution.

Peace to you

 

[Van]

Your Bible study 101 is very different than mine.

I don’t rewrite the passage in my own words, I attempt to understand the words of the passage in the context it was written.

God’s sovereignty, specifically the work of God Holy Spirit, is a major theme in all of Romans and also Chapter 8.

The passage you are addressing “all things work…” isn’t speaking of sin but of persecution. God is using persecution of believers to accomplish His will in the world.

Believers must have felt separated from God because of the persecution they suffered, perhaps thinking they caused the persecution because of sin.

Paul assured them nothing can separate them from the love of Christ.

You rewrite the passage to focus on sin while Paul was focused on the love of Christ in the midst of persecution.

Peace to you

Obscene nonsense, if you do not put your understanding of the verse in your own words, you are just parroting others.

Romans 8:28 (Interpretive translation)
"And we see that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose."

Here "their trust and devotion" has been added to clarify the scope of the word "all" in the verse.

The concept that sin accomplishes good is a fiction and a destructive heresy in my opinion. Paul would say, "God forbid."

 

[Van]

Christ gives us the basis for Paul's comments in Romans. John 15:15...for ALL THINGS I have heard of my Father, I have made known unto you". The "all things" is the gospel of the kingdom of God and his righteousness. (Matt 6:33) It is New Covenant teachings of the body of Christ, the kingdom of God. ALL THINGS work together to the preservation of the true saints of God as we see in Matthew 16:18. It is the body of Christ as the kingdom of God being preserved as a bride people. 1 Kings 8:56 tells us Blessed be the Lord, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to ALL that he promised: there HATH NOT FAILED ONE WORD of ALL HIS PROMISE (ALL THINGS), which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

Who then are those that love the Lord and to whom the promises (ALL THINGS) belong? Christ said in John 14:21, "He that hath my commandments and keepeth them (Jeremiah 11:6, John 3:16), is he that LOVETH ME. The commandments or New Covenant was given to the Church at Jeruslem. Outside the body of Christ, you neither can receive nor keep covenant with God. ALL THINGS work together that the body of Christ might not only abundantly prosper (John 17:3) but also that the kingdom of God, the everlasting kingdom with the everlasting covenant, might not perish. NOT ONE WORD WILL FAIL

The idea that "all things" refers to the same subset of things contextually in view is nonsense. In John 15:15 the "all" refers to the set of information given to Christ by the Father, He has conveyed all that information to His disciples. The phrase "all these things" (Matthew 6:33) should simply be translated as all these needs will be provided to you. Specifically what to eat, drink and wear.

Matthew 16:18 has nothing to do with preservation of the saints, but rather the church overpowering the "gates of Hades" to help bring those condemned already (John 3:18) into safety in Christ.

All His Promise does not refer to "all things" but to "all promised things."

Does any verse say "all imaginable things" work together that the body of Christ might prosper, John 17:3? Nope, that verse simply says all whom the Father has given to the Son have eternal life and know both the Father and the Son.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

An excellent book to ead on this subject s All Things for Good by Thomas Watson, another Banner of Truth Puritan paperback. He shows from the Bible how both good and bad things work for the good of Christians. If not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from the will of God the Father, He is well able to order things for those who are His.

 

[unprofitable]

Thank you for reminding me that nonsense is also a word you like to throw around. I sure didn't mean to not give you credit for all things.

To say that the Father was ONLY telling the Son that he would provide them what to eat, drink, and wear is, let me use one of your words, nonsense. Mattew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, take no thought for YOUR life, what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink, nor yet for YOUR body. Is not THE LIFE (eternal) John 17:3) more than meat, and THE BODY (of Christ) more than rainment. He was speaking to show we would be clothed in HIS righteousness through HIS COVENANT in HIS KINGDOM, not of our works, lest Van should boast.

The gates of Hell are the perverted OT doctrines of the vain imagination of men wherein they self proclaim their own righteousness. It is also those who pervert the new covenant teachings today.

ALL THINGS speaks concerning the understanding of the teaching of God in the New covenant that gives good instruction (Proverbs 1:2,3,7,8) to those in Christ that they might bring forth fruits of righteousness and thereby edify the body of Christ.

I await your next adjective.

 

[canadyjd]

I said:….

Your Bible study 101 is very different than mine.

I don’t rewrite the passage in my own words, I attempt to understand the words of the passage in the context it was written…..

Peace to you

Van responded:….

Obscene nonsense, if you do not put your understanding of the verse in your own words, you are just parroting others….

So, attempting to understand scripture in the context it was written is not only “nonsense” according to @Van, it is “obscene nonsense”.

I really think that explains everything we need to know about the usefulness of any post Van makes.

peace to you

 

[Van]

I said:….So, attempting to understand scripture in the context it was written is not only “nonsense” according to @Van, it is “obscene nonsense”. I really think that explains everything we need to know about the usefulness of any post Van makes.

peace to you

Yet another off topic attack on my behavior, rather than addressing the topic. And then note the false charge claiming I said the opposite of what I said. I said: "Obscene nonsense, if you do not put your understanding of the verse in your own words, you are just parroting others." Does this preclude "attempting to understand scripture in context?" Nope, the process requires the effort.

Romans 8:28 (Interpretive translation)
"And we see that to the ones loving God, all their trust and devotion is working together for good, for the ones being called according to His purpose."

Here "their trust and devotion" has been added to clarify the scope of the word "all" in the verse.

The concept that sin accomplishes good is a fiction and a destructive heresy in my opinion. Paul would say, "God forbid."

 

[DaveXR650]

You almost actually answered my questions! God does indeed allow things to happen for which he did not author or predestine. But when you say God allows sin means He predestines sin that makes Him the author of that predestined sin. Full Stop and I am not playing head games.

All I would ask is for you to tell me "Do you believe God has foreknowledge of what is going to happen?"
Most of us do and if so, "Do you believe God could do something to prevent or change a future event"?
If he doesn't intervene then "Do you see how God is allowing that event to happen".
Now think: If what God is going to allow to happen is part of God's foreknowledge then it really is going to happen. There can be no other outcome. Therefore it is predestined to happen - and yet, God is not the author of the event although he allowed it.

No. It is not true that to be predestined can only be that God caused it directly. I am saying that something can be predestined that God only allowed, not caused. Assuming there are creatures involved capable of doing things. That is why God did not cause the Fall of man, or the arrival of evil, or the rebellion of angels - and yet he is and always has been completely in control of all events that are happening and will happen.

I mean, the only other alternative is that God is playing it by ear and is just as shocked at every event as the rest of us. But if you believe that you would cut out almost all the Bible.

 

[Silverhair]

No. God is not the author of sin. I'm just saying that he knows about original sin and each individual sin before it ever happened or happens. He also not only knew about it but had the power to stop what was going to happen before it happened. That is NOT the same as saying God directly causes all things including sin. The WCF tries to keep that in mind, to their credit.

So in the sense I just described you have set up a false choice. God is NOT the author of sin, AND everything IS predestined, because God has either directly determined or has allowed (within his sovereign will) for a thing to happen. Once he has decided for a thing to happen it will and must happen. And since God does not go along like we do, in the present, while constantly learning, you then could say he ALWAYS knew the right answer to what was going to happen. Since God is never wrong then it has to happen that way - so it is predetermined. Is it all a head game? Yup.

You do realize that there is a difference between God determining all things and God foreknowing all things, or at least I hope you do. You have tried to get God of the hook so to speak when you say He allows all His determined things so He is not responsible for those determined evil things that happen. That is illogical.

God foreknows all the good and bad things that man will freely do but the fact He knows man will freely do them means He does not cause them to happen. Your deterministic predestination does that.