Plain ol' Ralph
New Member
If the qualifications for a preacher aren't found in Titus, I and II Timothy, where are they?
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Am I living in Sin?
- Thread starter RonHogston
- Start date
Plain ol' Ralph
New Member
God is not the author of confusion, so Baptists are?Originally posted by av1611jim:
MTA;
Ain't that the way we Baptists are?
Disagree in one thread. Agree in another.
Thank God for liberty.
In His service;
Jim
I can find no scriptural support for the idea that marrying a divorcee (to be specific, if the divoece was biblically permissible) is a sin.
That's strictly an OT concept. Because Jesus paid the price for all sin, there is no spiritual mark on anyone who has accepted him and laid their sins upon Him.
Irwin Hawkins
New Member
Friends,brothers, and sisters, I don't want to start a riot; but I think what "has" happened in a person's life shouldn't be the deciding factor in licensing, and ordaining someone to preach. I have heard three "different translations from different Baptist preachers as to what Paul is saying in 1 Tim.3 concerning qualifications for a Bishop, or a decon (overseer?) of the church. #1 Says you cannot "have been" divorced;#2 You "must have" a wife; and #3 that i personally agree with; you can't have "more than one wife"; I guess we all have our own pet translations huh?
I sure hope the brother that was pastor of the church where I got licensed to preach at least reads the threads on this Baptist Board. When I was called to preach, I had very recently come out of a divorce, I had gone over to the pastors house to tell him I was going on vacation; I was in Prison Fellowship ministry when I joined that church, and the pastor started going with me. While we were in conversation at his home; without me knowing before I got to his home that I was going to say what I was going to say, I told him; "brother----- I have been called to preach." A big ole grin came across his face, and he said; "I've been wanting to tell you that for a long time, but I was afraid I would scare you off." My next reply was; "Yes, but I have been divorced." Then he ask; "What has that got to do with it?" I told him that as far as I knew nothing, because I "knew" i was being called by the LORD. As ask for, I showed evidence that I had been called by preaching the requestd number of times, and was licensed by the church, I later moved to a different area and was called to fill the pulpit in a "Community Church" and was ordained there "by the SBC church that was still my home church. I pastored that church for more than three years.
With the love Jesus gave me.
With love of GOD the Father,
With love of GOD the Son,
With love of GOD the Holy Spirit,
All three make one.
irwin
I sure hope the brother that was pastor of the church where I got licensed to preach at least reads the threads on this Baptist Board. When I was called to preach, I had very recently come out of a divorce, I had gone over to the pastors house to tell him I was going on vacation; I was in Prison Fellowship ministry when I joined that church, and the pastor started going with me. While we were in conversation at his home; without me knowing before I got to his home that I was going to say what I was going to say, I told him; "brother----- I have been called to preach." A big ole grin came across his face, and he said; "I've been wanting to tell you that for a long time, but I was afraid I would scare you off." My next reply was; "Yes, but I have been divorced." Then he ask; "What has that got to do with it?" I told him that as far as I knew nothing, because I "knew" i was being called by the LORD. As ask for, I showed evidence that I had been called by preaching the requestd number of times, and was licensed by the church, I later moved to a different area and was called to fill the pulpit in a "Community Church" and was ordained there "by the SBC church that was still my home church. I pastored that church for more than three years.
With the love Jesus gave me.
With love of GOD the Father,
With love of GOD the Son,
With love of GOD the Holy Spirit,
All three make one.
irwin
There are many, many different ways you can fulfill the call of God without bringing reproach upon the pure testimony of the church.
As a preacher, I preach the gospel. I do not fulfill many pastoral duties as outlined in Paul's pastoral epistles.
As a pastor, one is called to much more than preaching.
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AV1611jim:
I agree with you completely. I too have been divorced and, like you, I am a God-called preacher, but I do not pretend that I could be or should be ordained as a pastor. I have filled appointments on Sunday and Wednesday evenings and helped in revival efforts. I have also taught Sunday school and Bible studies. There is plenty of work for the minister outside of pastoring a church.
________________________________________________
I agree, I have been divorced and am a God-called preacher, yet there is no desire in me whatsoever to be ordained as a pastor. I preach as needed, teach Sunday School and work anywhere there is a need. I fulfill the role of an associate pastor without the need for titles or recognition. I am just overjoyed that God sees fit to use me.
In Christ
Ronnie
As a preacher, I preach the gospel. I do not fulfill many pastoral duties as outlined in Paul's pastoral epistles.
As a pastor, one is called to much more than preaching.
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AV1611jim:
I agree with you completely. I too have been divorced and, like you, I am a God-called preacher, but I do not pretend that I could be or should be ordained as a pastor. I have filled appointments on Sunday and Wednesday evenings and helped in revival efforts. I have also taught Sunday school and Bible studies. There is plenty of work for the minister outside of pastoring a church.
________________________________________________
I agree, I have been divorced and am a God-called preacher, yet there is no desire in me whatsoever to be ordained as a pastor. I preach as needed, teach Sunday School and work anywhere there is a need. I fulfill the role of an associate pastor without the need for titles or recognition. I am just overjoyed that God sees fit to use me.
In Christ
Ronnie
I tend to agree with freeatlast.
Among some Sovereign Grace Landmark ministers I know personally this is a divided question.
I know some whom I deeply love and respect who believe in your situation you would be within the bounds of scripture. (IN most cases however, these are also believers in the absolute sovereignty of God in all things...so be careful there).
Others believe you would be eligible to preach but not pastor (or for ordination). I am inclined to agree with these and this would be in line with some of the posts here I believe.
Still others believe your entire opportunity to minister has been forfeited. And in this group are those who would not even accept you as a member of the church, believing you are now living in adultery. I disagree with these and only ask among them who are worthy of church membership to cast the first stone. (1 Cor. 6.1-11)
I only know one thing for certain, this is a potentially devisive subject especially locally. Regardless of what we may say of it here, the greatest hurt could be to you and your family and those around you in your local church.
I will be in prayer for you that what ever your decision and what ever you must face the Lord will provide Grace and Peace in all concerned.
Bro. Dallas
Among some Sovereign Grace Landmark ministers I know personally this is a divided question.
I know some whom I deeply love and respect who believe in your situation you would be within the bounds of scripture. (IN most cases however, these are also believers in the absolute sovereignty of God in all things...so be careful there).
Others believe you would be eligible to preach but not pastor (or for ordination). I am inclined to agree with these and this would be in line with some of the posts here I believe.
Still others believe your entire opportunity to minister has been forfeited. And in this group are those who would not even accept you as a member of the church, believing you are now living in adultery. I disagree with these and only ask among them who are worthy of church membership to cast the first stone. (1 Cor. 6.1-11)
I only know one thing for certain, this is a potentially devisive subject especially locally. Regardless of what we may say of it here, the greatest hurt could be to you and your family and those around you in your local church.
I will be in prayer for you that what ever your decision and what ever you must face the Lord will provide Grace and Peace in all concerned.
Bro. Dallas
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
They may not, but past actions definitely do affect present circumstances.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
31. "Furthermore it has been said, `Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
32. "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. Matt. 5:31, 32(NKJV)
3. The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?''
4. And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning `made them male and female,'
5. "and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
6. "So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.''
7. They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?''
8. He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.''
10. His disciples said to Him, "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.''
11. But He said to them, "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given:
12. "For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.'' Matt. 19:3-12(NKJV)
2. The Pharisees came and asked Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?'' testing Him.
3. And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?''
4. They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.''
5. And Jesus answered and said to them, "Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
6. "But from the beginning of the creation, God `made them male and female.'
7. `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
8. and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9. "Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.''
10. And in the house His disciples asked Him again about the same matter.
11. So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her.
12. "And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.''
Mark 10:2-12(NKJV)
18. "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. Luke 16:18. (NKJV)
10. Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband.
11. But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife. 1 Cor. 7:10, 11 (NKJV)
Some people find some wiggle room in Matt. 5 & 19. Mark and Luke are very explicit. Your situation is, at the very best, highly questionable. In my personal opinion, you should be excluded from the pastoral ministry.
32. "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. Matt. 5:31, 32(NKJV)
3. The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?''
4. And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning `made them male and female,'
5. "and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
6. "So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.''
7. They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?''
8. He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.''
10. His disciples said to Him, "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.''
11. But He said to them, "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given:
12. "For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.'' Matt. 19:3-12(NKJV)
2. The Pharisees came and asked Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?'' testing Him.
3. And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?''
4. They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.''
5. And Jesus answered and said to them, "Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
6. "But from the beginning of the creation, God `made them male and female.'
7. `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
8. and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9. "Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.''
10. And in the house His disciples asked Him again about the same matter.
11. So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her.
12. "And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.''
Mark 10:2-12(NKJV)
18. "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. Luke 16:18. (NKJV)
10. Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband.
11. But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife. 1 Cor. 7:10, 11 (NKJV)
Some people find some wiggle room in Matt. 5 & 19. Mark and Luke are very explicit. Your situation is, at the very best, highly questionable. In my personal opinion, you should be excluded from the pastoral ministry.
RockRambler
New Member
Too many of the judgemental Christians forget that part about what God has joined together.
I really don't think that God joined together that many marriages that end in divorce.
God is not the author of confusion, so Baptists are? </font>[/QUOTE]In many ways, yes Ralph. Baptists are confusing. Have you READ any of the threads on this board?Originally posted by Plain ol' Ralph:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by av1611jim:
MTA;
Ain't that the way we Baptists are?
Disagree in one thread. Agree in another.
Thank God for liberty.
In His service;
Jim
Now why is this true?
Because of human nature. Always gotta be right. As evidenced by some of your posts. Many times I agree with your points made. Many times I do not. That is only human. Unfortunately some folks see the devils work in far too many places where, I submit, he could care less. This is evidenced by your misuse of the phrase, "author of confusion".
I know WHERE you got it from and your supposed reason for using it.
But this gets WAY WAY off topic. Shall we stick to what is pertinent and germane to the discussion shall we?
In His service;
Jim
ps; ya like my use of college words there? pertinent and germane. LOL
RockRambler
New Member
MTA, I really don't know. My point is that I was married the first time at 19, as was my wife. Neither one of us were saved and we did not attend church. After over 20 years ups, downs, faults and sins on both sides, we divorced.
I do not blame God for joining us together, because we were not looking to God when we married or living any type of a Chrisitian lifestyle.
My current wife and I met at a Baptist retreat center, while there on non-religious business. We were both saved after the initial meeting, joined the church, and then married. (Baptized one Sunday, married the next Saturday in the same church). Now both of my daughters from the first marriage, age 16 &18, are saved and are very involved in Baptist Youth activities. They often testify that if their parents hadn't divorced, then the whole family would still be on the road to hell. They think that their stepmother is the greatest thing to ever happen to their dad, and they are right.
I feel that God has joined us together..but I blame my own youth and stupidity for the first marriage, not God.
Plain ol' Ralph
New Member
So making a vow to God somehow is either consumated or not due to what?
RockRambler
New Member
I think that the bigger question is whether a vow made by a non-believer gets past the roof of the building its made in.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
The Bible expressly tells us the answer to that question it does. The subject of making and keeping vows is found in many places in the Old Testament, beginning in Genesis 28.
20. Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me, and keep me in this way that I am going, and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on,
21. "so that I come back to my father's house in peace, then the Lord shall be my God.
22. "And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God's house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.'' Gen. 28:20-2, NKJV.
13. `I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family.' '' Gen. 31:13, NKJV.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Any man who desires strongly enough to marry a divorced woman can find an excuse to do so; and if he is desperate enough, he can even delude himself into believing that he has found one in the Bible.
williemakeit
New Member
It is one of those things that I must ask forgiveness for on a daily basis. The bible says it, so I believe it to be true. Yes, it is difficult for me, as a Christian that has been divorced and remarried, to face up to the reality that I am living in adultry. I do not believe that I can qualify to be a Pastor, and would not attend a church with such a Pastor. I just thank God that I have a home in heaven, and there are a few fruits that will withstand the fire in the end. To those with differing viewpoints, I just say continue to serve the Lord with all your heart, pray fervently, and the Lord will work it it out--if not here, then in Heaven.
God bless.
God bless.
RockRambler
New Member
With some of the attitudes expressed on this thread, I can see why one of my co-workers vows that she will never divorce again. Says if she can't take being married anymore she'll kill her husband...that murderers are forgiven more easily by some Christians than divorcees are.