An Even Closer Look at God’s Election

[Alan Dale Gross]

Matthew 22:14, . . . many . . . called . . . few . . . elect

Exactly as Romans 9 tells us:

"...God hath from the Beginning Chosen you to Salvation..."

“According as He hath Chosen us in Him before the Foundation of the World..."

"Since this Doctrine of God Eternally Choosing an Elect people According to His Good Pleasure is so clearly Revealed in the Bible, it is presumptuous to deny it.

"Question 1. Does not the Unconditional Election of some,
imply the 'Positive Action', on God's Part, of the Eternal Reprobation of the rest ?

"Answer. Nothing is more abhorent to our best feelings and at variance with our clearest convictions of the Divine Character, than to suppose that God has Created millions of immortals, with no other Design than to Render them Eternally miserable.

"It is granted that to Choose some, is to Leave the rest;

"but there is obviously a difference between:

A. Creating men for the special purpose of making them miserable,

B. and Leaving them to reap the fruits of their voluntary corruption.[f]

Have you ever really seen where God,
through the Apostle Paul
has anticipated this objection,
in God’s Epistle to the Romans?

“Is there unrighteousness with God?

"God forbid. For He saith to Moses,
I Will have Mercy on whom I Will have Mercy,
and I Will have Compassion on whom I Will have Compassion.

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth Mercy.”[g]

"Jehovah was under no obligation to Choose any, but would have remained Eternally Just had the whole of our race descended to the gulf of interminable despair.

"This doctrine supposes the exercise of Sovereignty on the part of God, and here we acknowledge, is laid the Eternal Basis, upon which is raised the imperishable fabric of our Hope.

"Let no reasonable man object to the sovereignty of God in Election, because this would equally militate against the economy of Providence, and so God would be unjust because he has made a difference between the Plebeian aud the Prince, or because all are not rich, or possessed of talents such as have immortalized
"the names of Locke, of Newton or of Boyle.

c 2d Thess. 2. 13. d Ephes. 1. 4.5. € 1. Thess. 1. 4. Ephes. 1.3. :/,
Galatians 6. 7.8. g Romans 9. 14, 15. 16.

"We might with equal propriety object to the Sovereignty of God in Choosing David, the youngest and most unlikely of all the sons of Jesse, to sway the sceptre of Israel.[h]

"Or because Saul of Tarsus, and not Gamaliel, was Chosen, to preach amongst the Gentiles the Unsearchable Riches of Christ.

"They were, it is believed, equally just in the Sight of God, but if any difference existed, it must have been in Favor of the latter.

"No reason therefore can be assigned which better explains the Divine Sovereignty in the selection of Saul: or of thousands, who like him, were far from Righteousness, than this, “even so Father, for so it seemeth good in Thy Sight.”

"Now if the Sovereignty of God stands connected with the Harmony & Glory of His Moral Government, by parity of reasoning it must be a part of the Plan of Redemption, because Providence and Grace mutually operate for the accomplishment of the same Grand Design.

"The Election of some to Eternal Life, does no more obscure the idea of God's Justice, than the appointment of Cyrus, rather than some other, to demolish the Babylonish empire, to emancipate the captive sons of Israel, and rebuild the temple.[k]

"Question 2. Is not the Doctrine of Election contrary
to the Divine Attributes of Love and Mercy?

"Answer. If it is a disparagement to the Mercy of God
that He has Power to Save all, yet leaves some to perish;

"it must also be unmerciful in God, to behold the temporal distress of any of his creatures, without so much as alleviating their misery, while it is in His Power to banish all their sorrow and render them completely happy.

"Why are the tears of the distracted mourner permitted to flow?
Why do we hear the cries extorted by the keen pangs of disease?

"Is it because the difficulty of raising the dead, or of healing the sick is greater now, than in the Apostolic age? Or is there less reason for such a display of Mercy.
Men are the same now as then, their pains are as acute, and their cries as piercing.

"But here we discover the Sovereignty of an All Wise and Holy God.

"But it may be said, the cases are not parallel, because God has not Promised to remove the present sorrows of man, whereas the means have been appointed, to bring men to the knowledge of the Truth, to hear and be Given Faith in the Gospel and to Insure their Eternal Salvation in Heaven.

"That God has not Promised to make men completely happy in this world, does not prove that He has not Power to do so;

"now if it is admitted that God has Power to make all men equally happy & yet Permits some to be the subjects of unmitigated sorrow, it proves to be a demonstration that God is a Sovereign, and does as seemeth Him Good amongst the inhabitants of the earth.

"The Gospel is no farther a means of salvation than it is applied by the Holy Spirit.

"Did not Christ and His Apostles, with all the power of eloquence and clearness of demonstration, preach the Gospel to the Jews who perished in the ruins of Jerusalem?

"If hearing the Gospel was all that was necessary; they heard it in all its Purity and Glory, as it sounded from the Lips of the Immaculate JESUS CHRIST,

h Psalms. 78. 70, 71. 1 Sam. 16. 12. i Matt, 11. 20. l. Isaiah #4.23. 35. 1. 1.

Why were they not saved ?

"But if it is conceded, that merely hearing the Gospel is not sufficient, but an application of it to the heart is necessary to conversion, then it follows, that the Salvation of a sinner is not a human, but a Divine Work.

"Now if this is the Work of God, independent of human agency, and it appears that all who hear the Gospel are not saved; what does this prove, but that as the wind bloweth where it listeth, so the Holy Spirit works by the instrumentality of the Gospel, “to will and to do, of His Own Good Pleasure.”[l]

"One is pricked in the heart, while another equally attentive to the means of Grace, and perhaps more moral remains careless and hardened in sin.

The different success of the Gospel at various places and at different times in the same place, delivered by the same preacher and to the same audience, most clearly exhibits the Sovereignty of Divine Grace, and proves beyond contradiction, that the conversion of sinners, is, “according to His Purpose and Grace,” as to the subjects themselves, and also as to the time of their change, and the means by which it is to be accomplished.

"Now according to the Divine and Sovereign Plan of Redemption, we are informed in the Apocalyptic writings, that God has Determined to Save a great multitude, which no man can number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues: [m] it must therefore be obvious, that the Doctrine of Election is not contrary to the Scriptural idea of the Mercy of God.

"Had not some been Chosen; all must have perished, and it is undeniable, that a Doctrine which secures the Salvation of an innumerable multitude, is more compatible with the Mercy and Love of God, than a Doctrine which reduces the Salvation of all to an uncertainty."

The Doctrine of uncertainty that teaches that noone in particular has been Chosen to experience Salvation, by God, from Eternity Past, by His Sovereign Election, teaches that there was the perfectly reasonable expectation that Jesus could have Lived, Died, Been Buried, and Rose Again, with no one ever choosing Him at all, leaving all mankind lost suffering in Hell, and for Jesus to have Died, for nothing.

Try not to brag on your ignorance.

Hudson River 1817 1819.pdf -
Baptist History Homepage
baptisthistoryhomepage.com › pdf

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

"In the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard, some laborers work all day and others work parts of the day, but they are all paid the same wage. Those who labored for the whole day complain, while those who worked shorter periods are thankful.

"The owner of the vineyard tells the complainers that he is paying them only what they had agreed to when he hired them (Matthew 20:13).

"Jesus concludes the parable in verse 16 with two well-known statements.

"The first one, “The last will be first, and the first last,”
means here that all receive the same salvation
no matter when they are called, early or late.

"The second one, “For many are called, but few chosen,”
will require more explanation, which is more clearly seen in the second parable.

The King’s Invitations.

The second place where “For many are called, but few are chosen”
occurs is Matthew 22:14, at the end of the Parable of the Wedding Feast.
This parable must be understood in its context, that is,
as a continuation of His thought at the end of Matthew 21:

“Therefore I say to you [the Jews], the kingdom of God

will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

And whoever falls on this stone will be broken;

but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables,

they perceived that He was speaking of them.

But when they sought to lay hands on Him,

they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet." (Matthew 21:43-46)

"At this point, Jesus launches into a parable designed to show the chief priests and Pharisees what they had done by their stubborn refusal to listen and change. It is easy to see that the king in the parable represents God the Father, and his son, of course, corresponds to Jesus Christ.

"The story is simple. A marriage has been arranged for the king’s son, and the initial invitations were sent out so all on the guest list could make plans to attend. In those times, travel over long distances was far slower than today, so plans needed to be made long in advance. However, those invited, though possibly honored by the invitation, declined to attend the wedding.

"So, a second, more urgent invitation was sent out to the same people, as time was getting short, but the invitees paid little heed to it, caught up in their own activities and ventures. They stated by their actions that they cared little for the king and his son. In fact, they were sufficient unto themselves with their farms and shops; they felt they had need of nothing (Revelation 3:17).

"Proving their contempt, they treated the king’s servants, who had personally borne the invitations to them, with great disrespect and even killed some. The king was rightly furious, and he mustered his forces to avenge his maltreated servants to erase the disrespect shown to him. His kindness and generosity had been spurned, and he responded with wrath.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Alan Dale Gross

"Question 1. Does not the Unconditional Election of some,
imply the 'Positive Action', on God's Part, of the Eternal Reprobation of the rest ?

Absolutely, and that's Gospel of Grace Truth !

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

"...God hath from the Beginning Chosen you to Salvation..."

“According as He hath Chosen us in Him before the Foundation of the World..."

"Since this Doctrine of God Eternally Choosing an Elect people According to His Good Pleasure
is so clearly Revealed in the Bible, it is presumptuous to deny it.

"It is granted that to Choose some, is to Leave the rest;

"but there is obviously a difference between:

A. Creating men for the special purpose of making them miserable,

B. and Leaving them to reap the fruits of their voluntary corruption.[f]

To further clarify this: "
I understand by "vessels of wrath” vessels which are destined to be objects of wrath,
or vessels to be filled up with Gods wrath (Isa. 51:20).

In I Thessalonians 5:9 Paul said: "For God hath not Appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain Salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
These words suggest that God did Appoint some to Wrath who are called in my text "vessels of wrath.”

Here is seen the Doctrine of Reprobation or Rejection.
Although this doctrine is sparingly mentioned in the Bible,
it most assuredly is taught in my text and in other places.

"If God Chose some to Salvation (II Thess. 2:13),
then common sense teaches us that others were Unchosen.

"In Romans 11:7 Paul said: „. . .the Election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”

In John 13:18 Christ said: "I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen,” implying some were not chosen.

"According to John 17:6 the Father gave Christ a people "out of the world.”

Then there must be a world not Given to Christ (II Peter 2:5; I John 5:19),
and for which He will not Pray (John 17:9).

There can be no Election without Reprobation, for Reprobation is the Opposite of Election.

(Alan's Note: The idea of Reprobation being the Opposite of Election,
includes the concept where, while Election means 'Choosing',
Reprobation is the Opposite of Choosing, which means, 'Not Choosing'.

So, as you will see here below, if you look hard enough,
God Did Not Make a Positive Choice to Appoint lost souls to Wrath,
or to Make them Vessels of Distruction.

The overall idea of saying that there is this Doctrine of Reprobation or Rejection,
Does Not Require God to Instigate a Positive Action or Degree.

There are two parts contained in the Doctrine of Reprobation or Rejection, below.

The moment that we to think about, as to 'when' God Chooses His Elect is during 5heir Pre-Created State.

Those Un-Created souls that had done no good or evil, as we know, were Chosen
as God 'Considered' those souls, with His Ability to Conceive of them in a Pre-Created State
and Selected some of Mankind at that 'time', before they had ever been Preceived as sinners, in their future Existence.

Some other souls of Mankind then remained, after God Chose His Elect, according to the Good Pleasure of His Own Will.

That is as simple as The Doctrine we call Reprobation is.
Reprobates were those who were left after God Elected some
and although we call them 'Rejected', it is still simply because God 'Passed Over them',
and of course, not because of anything about them, anymore than anything in the Elect.

So, the First 'part' of Reprobation is taking about God simply having Chosen by His Decree to Not Elect 'the rest'.

It is the second part of The Doctrine of Reprobation that speak of that may not be recognized with it so much.

Maybe, it is its own Doctrine, if we want to try
and separate it away from the Fact that God Didn't Just Decide that Damning some of Mankind
was something to do, just like He definently Had Decided to Elect and Save some.

This Second element of Reprobation, if we go back and still include it as part of that word,
IS WHERE GOD VIEWS THOSE PARTICULAR SOULS THAT WERE LEFT, WHO HE KNOWS WILL BE CREATED
AND ALSO THAT HE WAS CERTAINLY GOING TO ALLOW THE FALL OF ADAM INTO SIN, MEANING THEY, TOO, WOULD BE NATURALLY BORN INTO THIS LIFE AS SINNERS, WHO WOULD THEN SIN.

THEREFORE, SINCE HE HAD PROVIDED A LAMB SLAIN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD FOR HIS ELECT,
AND HE HADN'T AND WOULD NEVER PROVIDE THE GRACE OF ETERNAL SALVATION TO THOSE THAT WERE LEFT,
THEY WERE GOING TO DIE AND BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR SINS AGAINST GOD DONE IN THEIR BODY.

THE PERFECTLY HOLY ETERNAL JUDGE OF THE UNIVERSE
WOULD THEN FIND THEM GUILTY AND DAMN THEM TO HELL. WHY?

BECAUSE THEIR SINS HAVE TO BE PUNISHED,
BECAUSE ETERNAL GUILT OF SINS AGAINST AN ETERNAL GOD HAVE TO SUFFER ETERNAL PUNISHMENT,
AS GOD’S WAY OF OVERCOMING THE HORRIBLE EFFECTS OF THE SIN
THAT HAS BROKEN HIS LAW AND OFFENDED HIM.

THAT IS HIS WAY OF OVERRULING THE EXISTENCE OF THOSE OFFENSES AGAINST HIM AND BRING HIMSELF GLORY.

THAT GOD WILL OVERRULE SIN AND BE GLORIFIED BY THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE
THAT NO INHABITENCE OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE COULD EVER ACCUSE GOD OF THEN BEING UNJUST.

HOWEVER, THAT ETERNAL GLORY AND ELIMINATION OF SIN HAS TO BE ABSOLUTELY ASSURED
AND THE THEN DEGREE AND DERTERMINATION THAT GOD EXECUTES TO DEAL WITH SIN, ULTIMATELY,
IS ALSO ASSOCIATED WITH AND INTIMATELY ATTACHED TO THE INDIVIDUAL SINNERS WHO WERE LEFT AND SINNED.

THEY WERE BY THE PRESENCE AND THEIR RESPONSIBILITY OF THEIR SINS BEFORE THEIR CREATOR,
DECREED AND DETERMINED TO INEVITABLY BE JUDGED FOR THEIR SINS WHEN THEY DIE AND THEN DAMNED.

GOD KNOWS ALL ABOUT ALL OF THAT AND HAS CHOSEN
THAT THE UNCHOSEN SINNERS ARE DAMNED FOR THEIR SINS.

WHEN? SOMETIME LOGICALLY SELECTED 'TIME', AFTER THEY HAD ALREADY BEEN PASSED OVER,
'WHEN' GOD 'THEN' DECREES TO GO AHEAD AND CREATE THEM, ALLOW THEM TO SIN AND DIE,
AND ALL-POWERFULLY DETERMINES THE DAMNATION OF THEIR SOUL,
TO HIS OWN GLORY IN VICTORY DEFEATING SIN, IN ITS ENTIRETY.

GLORY TO GOD. THAT IS THE ONLY GOD THERE IS AND THAT IS WHAT HE CHOSE TO DO AND HOW AND WHY.

The Divine Decree of the Rejection of some men is twofold: Preterition and Predamnation.

Preterition is a mere leaving of the creature out of the bounds of God's Election.

Predamnation is Gods Appointment of the Non-Elect to Everlasting Wrath.

Preterition is Negative; Predamnation is Positive.

Preterition is God withholding His Grace to which no man has a claim.

Predamnation is God considering man as a guilty sinner who deserved Condemnation and Wrath.

Absolutely, and that's Gospel of Grace Truth !

 

[Brightfame52]

@Alan Dale Gross

So, as you will see here below, if you look hard enough,
God Did Not Make a Positive Choice to Appoint lost souls to Wrath,
or to Make them Vessels of Distruction.

I disagree, for He positively and purposely made them vessels of wrath to fit them for destruction Rom 922

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

willing here: thelō

to will, have in mind, intend

1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose

God is not passive in fulfilling His purposes ! His design in making the vessels of wrath, was to make His Power known, as with Pharoah, was God not active in His dealing with that monarch ?

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

He endured them while they were sinning AND they were "fitted for destruction".

And then, where are we?

Does it say, "God fitted them"?

Bam.

I have a few words I can put together to mount my best argument in favor of...?

"the lost soul's own sins that they are responsible for having committed" did what?

"the lost soul's own sins that they are responsible for having committed", "FITTED" them "TO DISTRUCTION".

So, we would have something that sounded like,

"endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath",
(who are)
"the lost soul's who's own sins they have committed "FITTED" them "TO DISTRUCTION".

Could that possibly be something we were able to ever consider for an 'interpretation'?
...

Otherwise, we have: "endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath"
(that God)
"fitted to destruction",

(that's saying that by a Positively Determined Action, God Created individual human beings, by His Decree,
and then He "fitted" them, on His Own, to be the One Responsible for them going,)
"to destruction".]

That's where I think we can't go. And there is certainly no need to.

 

[Brightfame52]

He endured them while they were sinning AND they were "fitted for destruction".

And then, where are we?

Does it say, "God fitted them"?

Bam.

I have a few words I can put together to mount my best argument in favor of...?

"the lost soul's own sins that they are responsible for having committed" did what?

"the lost soul's own sins that they are responsible for having committed", "FITTED" them "TO DISTRUCTION".

So, we would have something that sounded like,

"endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath",
(who are)
"the lost soul's who's own sins they have committed "FITTED" them "TO DISTRUCTION".

Could that possibly be something we were able to ever consider for an 'interpretation'?
...

Otherwise, we have: "endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath"
(that God)
"fitted to destruction",

(that's saying that by a Positively Determined Action, God Created individual human beings, by His Decree,
and then He "fitted" them, on His Own, to be the One Responsible for them going,)
"to destruction".]

That's where I think we can't go. And there is certainly no need to.

Gods fitting them for destruction causes them to fit themselves for destruction, Gods purpose is the first cause always friend, even of secondary causes.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Gods fitting them for destruction causes them to fit themselves for destruction

I can't see in there where you say,, God "fitted them".

I see where when God Created Adam, that put man in the position to have the possibility to sin, since God couldn't have made Adam Immutable,, which is a None Communicable Attribute of God. So, with Adam there being capible of choosing to break God’s Command, which would Offend His Holiness, that would make Adam a sinner, but OF HIS OWN VOLITION. Adam did,of course, inevitably turn away from God to comment sin,

So, Adam and his posterity became sinners, but it wasn't God Who Made Adam sin..

God did Know it would happen though,, because He had already Prepared a Lamb, from thr Foundation of the World.

Gods purpose is the first cause always friend, even of secondary causes.

Sure, friend. I'm lovin it. God Ensured His Purpose for the Saved and lost souls to bring Him Glory, eventually.

I just can't throw God in there as lf we're saying His is the Auther of sin, and so, that males Him Responsible for being involved intimately, as the cause of each individuals sin. I can't get there from here.

And then, where are we?

Does it say, "God fitted them"?

"Fitted for destruction" is a phrase from the Bible, specifically Romans 9:22,
which describes people who are considered by God to be deserving of punishment and destruction due to their sinfulness; essentially, they are "prepared" for destruction by their own actions and lack of repentance.

"Key points about the phrase:

• Context:
  "In the verse, Paul is discussing God's sovereignty
  and the idea that God can choose to show mercy to some
  while allowing others to face the consequences of their sin.
  
  
• "Vessels of wrath":
  "The phrase "fitted for destruction" is often used with the term "vessels of wrath,"
  signifying people who are considered objects of God's anger and destined for punishment.
  
  
• Interpretation:
  "Some interpretations emphasize that God does not actively "fit" people for destruction, but rather that their choices and actions lead them to that state."

From Google; Google Search
...

Then, there is always the consideration of wanting to distance myself from this business here, which I conshereby. be herecy.

ELECTION IS NOT TWO-SEEDISM.

This is another epithet that Arminians delight to apply to the Bible doctrine
of election. In brief, two-seedism holds that Adam and Eve brought forth two
seeds, one the seed of God and the other the seed of the serpent.

"Daniel Parker, who gave currency to this doctrine, taught that the seed of God
"were actual sons of God from eternity," and that the seed of the serpent
were "begotten of the devil" (Minutes of General Association of Baptists in
Kentucky, 1837, p. 11).

"No such teaching as this is involved in unconditional election. We have
shown that election is unto salvation, and, therefore, is not salvation.
Salvation takes place in time. All men are children of the devil until they
become children of God by regeneration and faith. 1 John 3:9,10."

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

THE TWO PHASES OF GOD'S WILL:

"We have said that God Saves all He Chooses or Wills to Save.

"On the other hand, God "Commandeth all men every where to Repent" (Acts 17:30).

"God has also Commanded that the Gospel be preached to every creature
(Mark 16:15), and the Gospel is God's General Call,* also being properly
accompanied with a General Invitation, such as Christ gave (Matt. 11:28).

"This makes it evident that a distinction must be made in dealing,
with the Will of God. God has made that distinction for us.

"You will find it in Deuteronomy 29:9;

"Keep therefore the Words of this Covenant, and do them,
that ye may prosper in all that ye do."

"There God's Will is divided into His Secret and Revealed Will.

"This distinction is brought out there because it is indicated in the 29th and 30th
chapters that the Israelites would be permitted of God to so disobey Him and
that He would send the captivity upon them and finally scatter them to the
four winds of the earth. It was His Secret Will to permit this.

"But His Revealed Will was that they should obey.

"That fixed their responsibility, as Deut. 29:29 clearly indicates.

"This distinction between God's Secret Will and His Revealed Will does not, as
has been charged, "put an intolerable dualism into the Being of God and
charge Him - sit venia verbo - with falsehood and deceit" (Schaff).

"It is basedon a fact of human experience.

"God's Revealed Will expresses His Immanent Preference in things considered
within themselves and apart from His Perfect and Holy Purpose. That there
should be a difference between God's Immanent Preference in things
abstracted from the whole and His Consummate Purpose is imperfectly
illustrated in the following instance:

"A loving parent takes no pleasure in the suffering of a child, yet, in order to the child's future good and happiness, the parent inflicts suffering by way of chastisement.

"The parent thus employs a thing that is displeasing within itself for the attainment of a purpose.

"God is not Pleased with sin, within itself considered; but in the Accomplishment of His Purpose it has Pleased Him to permit sin and to Overrule it for His Glory.

*By a General Call and a General Invitation we mean such as are extended to
others as well as the Elect. We take Christ's Invitation to expressly include
those striving for Salvation through legal observances, being thus heavy
laden.

"It is too much to assume that all of this class that heard these words
came to Christ. Thus this invitation was General."

(Alan's Note: And it might be too much to assume that Jesus Spoke those words to Address lost souls. If He did, by Him saying, Come unto Me", would include Who He is, i.e., The Perfect Promised Messiah Who was to die as the result of sin being placed on Him, WHICH IS THE VERY THING A LOST SOUL MUST REPENT OF AND BELIEVE IN WHAT JESUS WAS TO ACCOMPLISH.)

"God's Secret Will is the same as His Will of Purpose.

"God's Revealed Will is the same as His Will of Approbation."

ELECTION AND THE NON-ELECT.

"Election imposes no restraint on the non-elect.

"Election actively affects them in no way.

Election leaves them in exactly the same condition they would be in if there
were no such thing as election- a condition of spiritual impotence and
condemnation, such as all sinners are in by nature.

"An election of some to life does not imply an election of some to death.

"The death of the wicked is not the result of election, but of God's just dealings with them as sinners. It is their rightful wages (Rom. 6:23). In election God simply chooses out of the whole mass of depraved mankind those whom He pleases to save for just and holy reasons known only to Himself.

"The rest He simply leaves to the just consequences of their sin.

If a rich man chooses out one beggar and gives him wealth, can it be justly said that in so doing he elects all other beggars to suffer perpetual poverty?

After reading the foregoing, one asked: "Does not the author believe in
reprobation?" The answer is, He most certainly does. And the foregoing is in
nowise inconsistent therewith, but rather implicitly affirms reprobation. The
author is in full and happy agreement with Warfield in the following
statement concerning Reprobation:

"Were not all men sinners, there might still be an election, as Sovereign as now;
and there being an Election, there would still be as Sovereign a Rejection;

BUT THE REJECTION WOULD NOT BE A REJECTION TO PUNISHMENT,
or TO DESTRUCTION, or TO ETERNAL DEATH.

"BUT TO SOME OTHER DESTINY CONSONANT
TO THE STATE IN WHICH THOSE PASSED BY SHOULD BE LEFT.

"It is not indeed, then, because men are sinners that men are left unelected;
election is free, and its obverse of rejection be equally free;
BUT IT IS SOLELY BECAUSE MEN ARE SINNERS
THAT WHAT THEY ARE LEFT TO IS DESTRUCTION"
(Biblical Doctrines, p. 54).

RESPONSIBILITY AND SPIRITUAL INABILITY.

"The sinner is without ability in spiritual things, but that does not destroy his
responsibility. That responsibility depends upon present ability is a tenet of
chimney-corner (or street-corner) theology that cannot stand in the light of
scriptural facts.

"The heathen is responsible for living up to the light of conscience that he has concerning the law of God. Cf. Rom. 2:12-16.

"But he can't do this; for if some should do it, there would he no basis for their
condemnation, according to the above Scripture, and they would he saved by
works, by which the Scripture declares that none can be saved.

"Then those that bear the law are to be judged by it.

"This means that they are held responsible to obey the law.
But they cannot do this; for the voice of the law shuts every mouth (Rom. 3:19).

Hence responsibility does not depend upon present ability,
and spiritual inability does not destroy responsibility."

MAN RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS SPIRITUAL INABILITY.

"But while responsibility does not depend upon present ability,
it does rest upon former ability.

"Originally man had ability in spiritual things.

This ability he sinned away in the fall of Adam.

"The whole race participated inthis fall.

"This is the teaching of Rom: 5:12. "Have sinned" of King James Version is the translation of the aorist tense in the Greek. The aorist tense inthe indicative mode (and some other modes) expresses pointed action in past time.

"Rom. 5:12 therefore, does not allude to a course of sin followed by each
individual but to one apostasy, the apostasy of Adam, in which all
participated.

"The way in which all of Adam's race took part in the fall
is forcefully set forth by A.H. Strong as follows:

"The total life of humanity was then in Adam; the race as yet had its being
only in him. Its essence was not yet individualized; its forces were not yet
distributed; the powers which now exist in separate men were then unified
and localized in Adam; Adam's will was yet the will of the species. In Adam's
free act the will of the race revolted from God and the nature of the race
corrupted itself.

"The nature which we now possess is the same nature that
corrupted itself in Adam-not the same in kind merely, but the same as
flowing to us continuously from him." (Systematic Theology, p. 328).
Having sinned in Adam, each descendant of Adam is responsible for the
depravity and spiritual inability thus incurred."

 

[Brightfame52]

@Alan Dale Gross

I can't see in there where you say,, God "fitted them".

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Then you cant see what I see, the word fitted in the original is katartizō:

to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust: and its a perfect, passive, participle, the subjects are receiving the action,

So God is fitting them for destruction, for its His Purpose to make His Power Known

Now I know the argument that fitted is in the middle voice as well, yet that doesnt abate the truth, it only supports it, for Gods purpose/willing is the first cause , all other causes are subordinate, secondary to His will and purpose, hence the vessels of wrath have no other recourse but to willingly comply to Gods purpose. So yes they do in concert with Gods first cause purpose, fit themselves also for destruction, but Gods claims first, as with the pharoah

 

[Brightfame52]

@Alan Dale Gross

THE TWO PHASES OF GOD'S WILL:

Thats false and heresy friend, Job 23:13-14

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

"On the other hand, God "Commandeth all men every where to Repent" (Acts 17:30).

Thats only for the vessels of mercy and the very commanding causes the repentance.

The unregenerate, vessels of wrath have no right to repent and owe obedience to the law of God which also condemns them since Jesus was never their Surety.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him

Amen.

The unregenerate, vessels of wrath have no right to repent and owe obedience to the law of God which also condemns them since Jesus was never their Surety.

The unregenerate have no right not to repent and trust in the Person and Work of Jesus as the Only Savior, unless by 'right' you mean 'priveledge' or 'Spiritual Enablement'.

The are to still be positively Commanded, with their refusal still bringing Glory to God.

Thats false and heresy friend, Job 23:13-14

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

You can say God is the 'author of sin', and Commands the sin of sinners and that God is responsible for the sin the sinner commits and that, therefore, God is a sinner, so then there isn't any such thing as God.

But I can't go there and say that the sinner is fitted by God to be a vessel of Wrath, as if "what His Soul Desires, even that He Doeth", includes a Positive Decree, by which God Makes the Determination to Initiate the Production of sin in order for sinners to be sinners... and I don't have to.

Given the Fear of God which is the beginning of Wisdom is Accessed by the Spirit, there are more nuances that can be dug out of those passages to satisfy the apparant dilemma, although obviously, I see where you view the whole matter differently.

It just presents a discrepancy in my mind I can't resolve, if I were to adopt the position, "God Makes sinners sin", as being the reason sinners are sinners.

From: Election – Adunarea Baptistă Harul Suveran.

Two Kinds of Vessels Milburn Cockrell

Two Kinds of Vessels Milburn Cockrell „Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potte…

adunareaharulsuveran.wordpress.com

"Those who fear God and take the words of the Bible seriously can see that these verses teach election and reprobation according to Gods sovereignty. Here is seen the greatness of the Creator and the nothingness of the creature. Gods will is supreme and right in eternity and time.

"In an unusual manner, Paul clears God from any charge of cruelty and unmercifulness by observing His conduct in time toward both the elect and the reprobate.

VESSELS OF WRATH.

"In the first two verses God is represented as the Potter, and men as clay in His hands (Isa. 64:8; Jer. 18:1-6). As the potter has power over the clay to shape it in what form he pleases, so God has unlimited power over His creatures to make from the same lump of human clay vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy.

"No truly saved person challenges that right of God. Rather, he most reverently bows to it as the Scripture of truth. What would the ability to fashion be worth, if God were under the dictation of that which is to be fashioned?

I understand by "vessels of wrath” vessels which are destined to be objects of wrath, or vessels to be filled up with Gods wrath (Isa. 51:20). In I Thessalonians 5:9 Paul said: "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” These words suggest that God did appoint some to wrath who are called in my text "vessels of wrath.”

"Here is seen the doctrine of reprobation or rejection. Although this doctrine is sparingly mentioned in the Bible, it most assuredly is taught in my text and in other places. If God chose some to salvation (II Thess. 2:13), then common sense teaches us that others were unchosen.

"In Romans 11:7 Paul said: „. . .the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”

"In John 13:18 Christ said: "I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen,” implying some were not chosen.

"According to John 17:6 the Father gave Christ a people "out of the world.” Then there must be a world not given to Christ (II Peter 2:5; I John 5:19), and for which He will not pray (John 17:9).

"There can be no election without reprobation, for reprobation is the negative side of election.


"The Divine decree of the rejection of some men is twofold: preterition and predamnation.

"Preterition is a mere leaving of the creature out of the bounds of Gods election.

"Predamnation is Gods appointment of the non-elect to everlasting wrath. Preterition is negative; predamnation is positive. Preterition is God withholding His grace to which no man has a claim.

"Predamnation is God considering man as a guilty sinner who deserved condemnation and wrath.

"The words, "the same lump,” speaks of man as lying in the mere mass of creatorship, pictured by unformed clay before being put into shape. While in this state some were rejected. God left them as He found them in the pure mass before they had done either good or evil (Rom. 9:11). This was an act of Gods sovereign will and pleasure. That is why Paul starts out by saying: "What if God, willing to shew his wrath. . .” God had a greater right to do this than any earthly potter.

"Predamnation is Gods appointment of men Who He passed over to punishment for their sins (Jude 4).

"God gave some "over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient” (Rom. 1:28).

"In Psalm 81:12 God said He "gave them up unto their own hearts lusts.”

"The reprobate God left in their natural condition of enmity against God. He denied these the grace that could have cured their depraved hearts (Ezek. 36:26-27; Matt. 11:25-26).

"These are given up to believe a lie and be damned (II Thess. 2:10-12).

"Such wicked persons are "reserved to the day of destruction” and "shall be brought forth to the day of wrath” (Job 21:30).

"Job 20:29 says: "This is the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God.”

 

[Brightfame52]

@Alan Dale Gross

The unregenerate have no right not to repent and trust in the Person and Work of Jesus as the Only Savior, unless by 'right' you mean 'priveledge' or 'Spiritual Enablement'.

The are to still be positively Commanded, with their refusal still bringing Glory to God.

No, since Christ didn't live and die for the non elect and satisfy its law demands, like He did for the elect, then the non elect owe total obedience to the law, which leaves them cursed, because they are unable to render satisfactory obedience to the law Gal 3:10

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

You can say God is the 'author of sin', and Commands the sin of sinners and that God is responsible for the sin the sinner commits and that, therefore, God is a sinner, so then there isn't any such thing as God.

Gods purpose is the cause of sin, yet God employees subordinate causes for the doing of sin, which render those causes culpable. God will employee a evil spirit to deceive a man and yet 1 Kgs 20:20-23

20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.

22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Yet God isnt culpable at all, He is Holy !

Now God has made some men for hell, to be punished for their sins, He by purpose fits them for destruction, and because they have no other choice but to live as law breakers, they fit themselves for destruction as well, just as God designed.

 

[Saved421]

The apostles view of man
Paul and Peter explain to us that unredeemed man is just NOT able to believe in Jesus and the Gospel … due to a multitude of reasons! (Available in the opening post of the thread:
“Unable to Believe the ‘Foolish’ Gospel”)

No chance to be saved ---BUT --- With God it is possible!
“He (Jesus) said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” And those who heard it said, “Who then can be saved?” But He said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:25-27)

Jesus explains Father God’s intervention
“All that the Father gives Me (Jesus) will come to Me … This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing … No one CAN come to Me unless the Father who sent Me DRAWS him.” … And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one CAN come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (John 6:37-65)
● The word “CAN” refers to ability (or in this case, the lack of ability). Jesus was saying, “No one is able to come to Me unless the Father intervenes.”
● The Greek word for “DRAW” used here is “helko” (Strong’s #1670). Kittel’s Theological Dictionary defines “helko” as:
“to compel by irresistible superiority”.
Other New Testament uses of this word “helko” are …
“Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?” (James 2:6)
“… they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace” (Acts 16:19)
Man is not wanting to come, he is not even willing to come … he must be dragged!

More about Father God giving His people to Jesus
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish … My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all …” (John 10:27-29)
“… that He (Jesus) should give eternal life to as many as You (Father God) have given Him.” (John 17:2)
“Here am I (Jesus) and the children whom God has given Me.” (Hebrews 2:13)

Jesus gets to choose, not us!
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you ... I chose you out of the world” (John 15:16-19)

Paul defends God’s righteousness and His authority
“… that the purpose of God according to ELECTION might stand, not of works but of Him who calls … What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then, it is not of him who wills (to be saved), nor of him who runs (works for it), but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)
This last verse (9:16) is absolutely fatal to Arminianism
Man does not choose to believe and be saved … God chooses who will be saved … e.g. Lydia in Acts 16:14, where He “opened her heart” so she could believe what Paul was preaching.
*** Does God do this for everyone? ***
● Lydia was “a worshiper of God”, and if God needed to do this for her, surely He needs to do it for everyone!

We are saved by the power of God
“For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18)
This power of God starts with His giving the necessary faith to those He has chosen …
“To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours …” (2 Peter 1:1 - NASB, NLT)

The above is part of the Reformed view of predestination
Some famous theologians who believed in the Reformed view of predestination are: St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards.

Dear Doughcho,

We are drawn to him when we are saved, and yes, we shall go to him. Believing first, and then being going to Christ.

We must put our faith in the gospel first, check vs 40.

Why John 6 DESTROYS Calvinism!

Calvinists believe that God elected or chose certain people to be saved. If we believed Jesus Christ for our salvation, it’s not because of our own free will, it’s because God chose us to be that way. John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I […]

realbiblebelievers.com

 

[Brightfame52]

Dear Doughcho,

We are drawn to him when we are saved, and yes, we shall go to him. Believing first, and then being going to Christ.

We must put our faith in the gospel first, check vs 40.

Why John 6 DESTROYS Calvinism!

Calvinists believe that God elected or chose certain people to be saved. If we believed Jesus Christ for our salvation, it’s not because of our own free will, it’s because God chose us to be that way. John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I […]

realbiblebelievers.com

You cant put faith in or believe in Christ until you are first drawn by God Jn 6:44, you have the cart b4 the horse

 

[atpollard]

Get ready to be shocked, Dougcho....in the OT, God spared many people in the Land of Canaan. The first? A whore - and her whole family.

Note, it was GOD that made the choice to spare (technically, a few rather than many). That is the whole point of Reformed theology … GOD does the choosing!

I know you believe us non-Cals believe a "foolish" gospel. To me that means a false gospel and that you believe non-Cals are going to hell.

I cannot speak for him, but THIS Particular Baptist believes no such thing about my Arminian brothers and sisters in Christ. I merely believe that you give people too much credit for what God is doing. [Like Lydia and like Saul on the road to Damascus.] (That is hardly a damnable error, it is just ‘tOmato’ vs ’tomAto’ … an accent on the wrong syllable.)

See …

If Arminanism is correct, then PEOPLE doing and saying and believing the RIGHT THING matters.
IF Calvinism is correct, then the only thing that matters is GOD “WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER l HAVE MERCY, AND [GOD] WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” - Romans 9:15

 

[Saved421]

You cant put faith in or believe in Christ until you are first drawn by God Jn 6:44, you have the cart b4 the horse

All men are drawn to him, and yes, I stand corrected, God chose us in him to be saved according to his foreknowledge.

 

[Brightfame52]

All men are drawn to him, and yes, I stand corrected, God chose us in him to be saved according to his foreknowledge.

No all men arent drawn to Him, thats universalism.

 

[Saved421]

If I be lifted from the earth, will draw all men.

 

[Brightfame52]

If I be lifted from the earth, will draw all men.

Thats the elect and the drawing is the application of salvation.