Full preterism is false.Jesus did not"return" in 70ad.
He did however come in judgement.
I never said Jesus returned in 70ad.
Jesus did not return for His church,we still have work to do.
Where do you think I said Jesus returned?
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An Examination of Revelation 1:7: Futurism vs. Preterism
- Thread starter Logos1
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Full preterism is false.Jesus did not"return" in 70ad.
He did however come in judgement.
I never said Jesus returned in 70ad.
Jesus did not return for His church,we still have work to do.
Where do you think I said Jesus returned?
When scripture upon scripture and it shows the point being made then that pretty much answers the whole question.
So if you can put scripture upon scripture to prove that Christ returned in 70 A.D. you can prove your doctrine correctly.
I nowhere said Jesus returned in 70ad. The scriptures you offered proved nothing, if they did you would answer those I asked you about in my post about the letters to the churches.
If you have no scriptural back up then the theory has no meat.
I have not offered any theory...just questioned your speculations
No where does scripture say He would return when the destruction of Jerusalem occured.
I did not say Jesus bodily returned.I said He came in judgement upon Jerusalem as he said it would happen in MT24.
In fact Christ said in Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Yes....
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
This happened in Jerusalem...the holy place was desecrated.
Earthly Jerusalem is no longer the holy place
That these events must take place before He would return in judgement and as King (2nd Advent).
Jesus is Lord. He is King now.
The key that proves this was not in 70 A.D. is verse 15 the abomination that maketh desolate spoken of in Daniel had not occured during Christ time.
It did take place,the temple was destroyed
So somewhere between 30 A.D to the 70 A.D. return you claim took place
Again.....I never said Jesus returned!
the abomination would need to have stood for 3 1/2 years and then the Jews would go back to offering the oblation.
This is premill fantasy......The seventy week of Dan 9 is fulfilled
This has yet to occur and christ said it would come to pass before HE returned to judge the nations and His Kingdom to be set up.
Jesus fulfilled Dan9:24-27
Notice Christ says exactly where the abmonation that maketh desolate would stand, IN THE HOLY PLACE that would be in the temple.
There is no temple or holy place on earth......only the church is the Holy temple now
This didn't occur in the 40 years after Chrsit ascended and it has yet to happen. So the conclussion becomes what?
The conclusion is you are looking for things that have happened, but different than you think,so you are wasting time speculating about the anti christ, mark of the beast, european common market,etc
You must be able to prove it occured in that time frame to prove we are in the kingdom.
The Kingdom is now, Jesus is King now,ruling with a rod of iron rule, no sin or idle word will go unpunished....He comes on the last day, and all enemies will be cast into outer darkness ...the second death.
Festus rides again
I think some more words of wisdom from Festus pretty well sum of your responses so far.
If yore expectin' any pearls
o'wisdom to drop from mah mouth,
yore barkin' up the wrong tree.
Festus Haggen...Gunsmoke
I see now why after two posts you haven't quoted any scripture, referenced any verses, or tried to present a counter view. You are not trying to suggest a different interpretation just to deny whatever I say.
If you want to show what kind of person I really am then don't hold back MB--tell us what you really think. Go ahead and let go with your true feelings, both barrels--don't be so lazy try making a case for what you think.
Are you as lost on your opinion of me as you are for trying to make a case for futurism--you haven't made one scriptural argument in favor of it yet--just the basic juvenile denials against what you don't want to believe in.
No thanks I don't smoke and the Bible was written in Hebrew
Aramaic and Greek. I know you thought it was written in Latin
Sorry friend your the one who started this thread and it is a fantasy.
Oh you ought to write a comedy you're so funny
I felt charitible when I answered your post. I though poor guy he's so misled somebody needs to help this person.
Finaly a description of how you think which is why you read into scripture rather than read things out of it. No wonder you're so rattled.
It's especially my pleasure so people can see what kind of person you really are.:laugh:
MB
I think some more words of wisdom from Festus pretty well sum of your responses so far.
If yore expectin' any pearls
o'wisdom to drop from mah mouth,
yore barkin' up the wrong tree.
Festus Haggen...Gunsmoke
I see now why after two posts you haven't quoted any scripture, referenced any verses, or tried to present a counter view. You are not trying to suggest a different interpretation just to deny whatever I say.
If you want to show what kind of person I really am then don't hold back MB--tell us what you really think. Go ahead and let go with your true feelings, both barrels--don't be so lazy try making a case for what you think.
Are you as lost on your opinion of me as you are for trying to make a case for futurism--you haven't made one scriptural argument in favor of it yet--just the basic juvenile denials against what you don't want to believe in.
Answer of a general nature
I’m guessing it has something to do with the reason I get that same feeling answering your posts. Sort of like looking in a mirror isn’t it.
I wouldn’t pretend what we have been doing is a debate by any stretch of the imagination. You don’t make a counter argument you just try to deny whatever I say out of reflex like Pavlov’s dog.
If you want to bark with the big dog’s you got to get off the porch thomas—find some verses’ that actually support your argument—build a logical case—there’s more to it than just issue a blanket denial.
Although given the general emptiness of your position—maybe you have taken the best course of action.
I’m guessing it has something to do with the reason I get that same feeling answering your posts. Sort of like looking in a mirror isn’t it.
I wouldn’t pretend what we have been doing is a debate by any stretch of the imagination. You don’t make a counter argument you just try to deny whatever I say out of reflex like Pavlov’s dog.
If you want to bark with the big dog’s you got to get off the porch thomas—find some verses’ that actually support your argument—build a logical case—there’s more to it than just issue a blanket denial.
Although given the general emptiness of your position—maybe you have taken the best course of action.
Let's just pretend Spurgeon says what we want him to say--did I correctly sum it up?
Rev,
You aren’t even trying. This just looks lazy and seems like you don’t even read all of your own posts. You are just cutting and pasting and hoping no body thinks about what you are saying. There isn’t any thread of support for a premil dispy position here. No hint at a belief in the rapture which Spurgeon obviously held in contempt.
To believe that Babylon is the papal system would put him in the historicist’s camp. The rest of your first paragraph might suggest a classic premil camp—but in no way makes a dispy, rapture type of case.
If I were you I’d just pretend he didn’t make those statements about Darby and his supports also.
The rest of your post is just empty filler—not really relevant to what is going on here.
You’re just mailing it in Rev. It’s a waste of forum space.
Need I even bother to repeat we are not a day closer to the return of the Lord just a day further away from his return with futurism looking even more failed than it did yesterday and Preterism looking a day stronger than yesterday.
When do you think the I come back quickly statements of Revelation will look silly to 99% of the general population—20,000; a hundred thousand years from now—futurists will be left with the same tired worn out arguments—it just doesn’t get any better for them. Time works against futurists and for preterists.
Rev,
You aren’t even trying. This just looks lazy and seems like you don’t even read all of your own posts. You are just cutting and pasting and hoping no body thinks about what you are saying. There isn’t any thread of support for a premil dispy position here. No hint at a belief in the rapture which Spurgeon obviously held in contempt.
To believe that Babylon is the papal system would put him in the historicist’s camp. The rest of your first paragraph might suggest a classic premil camp—but in no way makes a dispy, rapture type of case.
If I were you I’d just pretend he didn’t make those statements about Darby and his supports also.
The rest of your post is just empty filler—not really relevant to what is going on here.
You’re just mailing it in Rev. It’s a waste of forum space.
Need I even bother to repeat we are not a day closer to the return of the Lord just a day further away from his return with futurism looking even more failed than it did yesterday and Preterism looking a day stronger than yesterday.
When do you think the I come back quickly statements of Revelation will look silly to 99% of the general population—20,000; a hundred thousand years from now—futurists will be left with the same tired worn out arguments—it just doesn’t get any better for them. Time works against futurists and for preterists.
So 99% think the futurist view is silly, seems odd that most in here don't see the preterist view as valid, even iconolist says Chrsit didn't return in 70 A.D.
Most believers see and believe Christ will return not that he has you throw this 99% out that think it silly but you have no poll to prove it.
Since you believe He has already returned then what purpose do we serve here, where do you see believers of today ending up, in Hell since HE has already returned and judged the world. The Kingdom age was supposed to begin according to the Revelation with unbelievers being judge and put to death and begining only with believers. If in fact He set up the Kingdom in 70 A.D. then where does history say all these folks were killed and only those who believed remained? History is real clear the Church was and still is being persecuted today. So the Kingdom could not have begun in 70 A.D. as again no Historical and no scriptural proof. Proof abounds that the church has continued to be persecuted, that unbelievers and believers alike have been on earth since 70 A.D. Asterick Tom says the 1 Thessalonian passage was to include the Thessolinican believers being part of the ones meeting the Lord in the Air. It seems preterist can't get on the same page.
Really I haven't heard that as scripture says He is ruling in Zion on the throne of David. The Messianic Kingdom has not yet come, that is how John described it.
Revelation 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
So if He is ruling with a rod of Iron when was the beast and False Prophet (False Messiah) cast into the Loake of Fire?
When was the remnant of unbelievers slain after He destroyed armies of the world?
It says not that Jerusalem would be slain but that the Beast which John shows as ruling the world would be slain and The False Prophet would be slain when He came to rule with a rod of iron so when did this occur?
Then revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Chrsit reigns on Earth for 1000 years again this has yet to happen so He is not ruling as Messiah at the current time as His reign will be on earth.
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
The Angel must have now joined satans forces for He lied to Mary according to the preterist, Christ would rule upon the throne of David, the Jews and Mary knew exactly what that meant, Physically and literally upon the earth. You say He is ruling in His Messianic Kingdom now on the Throne of David or is that yet FUTURE?
The above is your quote for these passages: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Notice if the Abomination was the destruction of the Temple then why in verse 15 does Christ say the Abomination will STAND in the Holy Place.
He further says it will be as Daniel spoke. Here is what Daniel Spoke:
Daniel 12: 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Notice Daniel says the Abomination will be set up for 1290 days that is 3 1/2 years. The Abomination that maketh desolate cannot be the destruction of the temple for scripture is quite clear the Abomination is set UP and STANDS in the Holy Place.
Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Seems like an image is SET UP and STANDS even being made to come to life by the False Prophet (False Messiah) who comes out of the Land (Israel). He works miracles and deceives the people then has them make an image of the first beast to be worshipped. Where will that image stand? Is this the Abomination that meketh Desolate and it will stand for 1290 days the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation until Christ comes and destroys the beast and False Prophet and their armies. He sets up His Kingdom on earth and rules for 1000 years. Revelation is very clear on all this.
Have you considered Psalm 110?REVMWC said:
http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/jesus-christ-king-priest-judge/
Steve
Psalms 110:
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
Verse two makes it fairly clear He will reign in Zion in the midst of His enemies. Verse 1 deals with the Lord having been crucified and seated by His Father Today and He will be there "until I make thine enemies thy footstool" seems real clear. When God's time table has been completed Christ will return as Conquering King and will rule on Earth as David said he would in Psalms 110.
Paul told us what Christ is doing today:
Romans 8: 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Ephesians 9:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Seems like He is making intercession for us and is ruling over the Angels even in the World to come. What is the world to come the Kingdom age followed by the New Jerusalem resting on the earth.
He is ruling but not as Messiah and King for all enemies have yet to be made his foot stool.
Fairly clear from Psalms 110 He will rule on the earthas King.
watch out brother when you use those "slick prophecies" of daniel!
used them earlier to support notion of a Second Coming at end of this Age, that isreal will be facing great tribulations, and that messiah will come back to save them and than set up his Kingdom on earth...
Guess BOTH of us missed the "memo" stating that isreal in OT prophecies always now means the Church in the New!
Did you mis-read what I said? Really, I haven't heard that; (as scripture says) He is ruling in Zion on the throne of David. (meaning I haven't heard that He is today ruling in Zion on David's throne as scripture tells us.)The Messianic Kingdom has not yet come, that is how John described it scripture says He is ruling in Zion on the throne of David. The Messianic Kingdom has not yet come, that is how John described it
That's not what the Scripture says. If Jesus rules with a rule of iron now then:
1. He can be seen in Jerusalem visibly.
2. He rules now with a rod of iron, and no sin or idle word now goes unpunished. That is not happening. Sin abounds in this wicked world and goes unpunished every day.
3. All nature would be living in perfect harmony; carnivorous animals would no longer eat flesh, but would live in harmony with sheep (herbivorous animals), and even the children would play in the midst of them. Snakes and serpents also would pose no danger to mankind.
And yet you say Jesus rules with a rod of iron now. You live in fantasy land.
LOL at what passes as a post these days
Rev,
So rev are you now not only not reading your own post, but not able to comprehend mine also or is this a feeble attempt to twist my words the same way you torture biblical passages to turn them into these futurists fantasies of yours that never come true (you know like these laughable 2,000 year old failures about a future literal Christ coming despite biblical passages to the contrary).
I think it could be a little of both—but clearly we see on display here the futurist method of twisting passages to suit their needs—but of course that is the only way the bible supports your position isn’t it.
In the above referenced post I said “When do you think the I come back quickly statements of Revelation will look silly to 99% of the general population—20,000; a hundred thousand years from now…”
Putting the 99% figure in the future—but you immediately proceeded to twist it into the present tense—for shame rev—I find it sad that you have to resort to such naked twisting of words to produce a post to support your position. It’s almost unreverend like. Not to mention how it sets a bad example for young eyes that may be reading these posts to see their elders total disregard for the truth and the supposed faith of the posters.
I should ask what purpose do you serve here if this is an example of your ministry.
For the balance of Christianity now that we are living in the “day” in the post Christ returned world we need to do what the bible says to do—do you still remember the passages in 1 Corinthians 13 about tongues, prophecy etc passing away and that only love would remain. This ties in with Christ’s commands to love one another (hint: that doesn’t mean twist their post into something they didn’t say).
We are suppose to support one another in the church and general Christian community and the World at large. To set an example of how to live (hint: that doesn’t mean twist their post into something they didn’t say) to make outsiders see the positive aspects of Christianity and be attracted to it not turned off by it.
Preterism ties in better with Christ and Paul’s teachings than does futurism where people are going around looking under every rock for the antichrist and obsessed with end time prophecy and Christ’s return. Preterism puts the returning of Christ behind us where it should be and allows the focus of the Christian to now be on love.
Why do I think these concepts are beyond your grasp rev.
Rev,
So rev are you now not only not reading your own post, but not able to comprehend mine also or is this a feeble attempt to twist my words the same way you torture biblical passages to turn them into these futurists fantasies of yours that never come true (you know like these laughable 2,000 year old failures about a future literal Christ coming despite biblical passages to the contrary).
I think it could be a little of both—but clearly we see on display here the futurist method of twisting passages to suit their needs—but of course that is the only way the bible supports your position isn’t it.
In the above referenced post I said “When do you think the I come back quickly statements of Revelation will look silly to 99% of the general population—20,000; a hundred thousand years from now…”
Putting the 99% figure in the future—but you immediately proceeded to twist it into the present tense—for shame rev—I find it sad that you have to resort to such naked twisting of words to produce a post to support your position. It’s almost unreverend like. Not to mention how it sets a bad example for young eyes that may be reading these posts to see their elders total disregard for the truth and the supposed faith of the posters.
I should ask what purpose do you serve here if this is an example of your ministry.
For the balance of Christianity now that we are living in the “day” in the post Christ returned world we need to do what the bible says to do—do you still remember the passages in 1 Corinthians 13 about tongues, prophecy etc passing away and that only love would remain. This ties in with Christ’s commands to love one another (hint: that doesn’t mean twist their post into something they didn’t say).
We are suppose to support one another in the church and general Christian community and the World at large. To set an example of how to live (hint: that doesn’t mean twist their post into something they didn’t say) to make outsiders see the positive aspects of Christianity and be attracted to it not turned off by it.
Preterism ties in better with Christ and Paul’s teachings than does futurism where people are going around looking under every rock for the antichrist and obsessed with end time prophecy and Christ’s return. Preterism puts the returning of Christ behind us where it should be and allows the focus of the Christian to now be on love.
Why do I think these concepts are beyond your grasp rev.
Logos1
I am a partial preterist in that mt24,and most of Luke 17-22 were fulfilled in the judgement upon apostate Jerusalem.
Jesus coming was in judgement...not a physical coming...for example he promised the apostles
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
This was not the second coming here.
I believe Jesus comes at the last day. The rapture is the last day.
The visible bodily return is on the last day.
Nothing else needs to take place, except a slight rebellion before the end...but the gospel is going worldwide,until the last day accomplishing exactly God's design perfectly.
Logos1.....why do you believe,ie, what text do you look for to say there is no visible return? Obviously you do not want to follow this;
You know this verse is here...so..clarify for me, if time permits..your view ?
I am a partial preterist in that mt24,and most of Luke 17-22 were fulfilled in the judgement upon apostate Jerusalem.
Jesus coming was in judgement...not a physical coming...for example he promised the apostles
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
This was not the second coming here.
I believe Jesus comes at the last day. The rapture is the last day.
The visible bodily return is on the last day.
Nothing else needs to take place, except a slight rebellion before the end...but the gospel is going worldwide,until the last day accomplishing exactly God's design perfectly.
Logos1.....why do you believe,ie, what text do you look for to say there is no visible return? Obviously you do not want to follow this;
You know this verse is here...so..clarify for me, if time permits..your view ?
There is still much we disagree on, but I am glad to see that you still believe that Christ is coming again, and coming visibly (unlike the beliefs of some others).
Well That is indeed good DHK....:thumbsup: I do however want to urge you to study....afresh...Hebrews 9-12 ....consider that which was in shadow{earthly] and that which is the reality......take time with it DHK..I promise it will not hurt you.:laugh: you might actually like it:wavey:
DHK..... I honestly did at one time hold to the premill view...i can still teach it. You and REVMAC keep faithfully posting it...as it is taught lets say by walvoord, or d.pentecost..things to come...
With any area of teaching I have tried to listen to ,or read those who oppose whatever I hold to. In whatever area...grace, eschatology, baptism, gifts,
I found I could not sustain the premill position against the challenges by amill and postmill writers...either scripturally or just thinking it out..
This in itself could turn into another thread...I suspect it will:type:
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;
DHK..revmac...others..whatever view we hold should lead us to serve Him in Holiness...
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To the 99% comment I mis-read what you said sorry. I wasn't trying to twist your words I tend to scan through what is written the scan didm't work well this time.
As for your saying Christ isn't going to return here is my answer to you comment “When do you think the I come back quickly statements of Revelation will look silly to 99% of the general population—20,000; a hundred thousand years from now…”
2 Peter 3:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
Matthew 24:
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
As it was in the Days of Noah Peter says they scoffed at Naoh too, but then Christ says the Flood came even though they Scoffed.
I can claim this 2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Which by the we get our Crowns upon His snatching the church out,
1 Corthians 3:
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
My Faith is in Christ and His work on the Cross to pay for my Sin that is my Foundation.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
I believe we all build up both types of these rewards when we fall back to sin we gain wood, hay and stubble when we follow after Him and do as the Holy Spirit leads we gain Gold Silver Precious stones. That is after all the material a crown is made from. The events at the end of Revelation show no rewarding of the believers what we see is the condemnation of the unbeliever at the Great White Throne. We see the army which comes with Christ clothed in White.
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
Christ will try our work not us, we are covered by our foundation of Faith in Him.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
The Gold, Silver and Precious stone will survive the fire and we will have our crown or crowns.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Wood, Hay and Stubble will be consumed but the person is saved yet so by or through the testing fire all his rewards of wood, hay and stubble are consumed but that person foundation of faith remains.
Now notice something we see in
Revelation 4:
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
When John is called up here for the vision the voice is like the trumpet and says come up hither, but then notice verse 4. The 24 Elders are sitting clothed in white and they had on their heads Crowns of Gold. Exactly as 1 Corinthians says they will have their reward. The call in Revelation 4:1 is showing How God will call the church out, He will snatch the belivers away and the Tribulation will begin as seen in the Vision John saw. The church is in Heaven as the Tribulation begins and ends with Christ return and the church by His side. Now also notice Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
As I have previously posted Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Christ promise that we who keep the word of His patience will be kept fron the hour or time of temptation (tribulation). Is seen in fulfillment by Revelation 4 and the beginning of Johns vision. You chose to believe He has already come but if He did and as some believe the book of Revelation written at an Earlier Date John would not have been seeing a vision but writing it all from heaven and the book of Jude will need to be disregarded since it was written 70 to 90 A.D. by Jude Who is believed by many to be the half Brother of Jesus and the Brother of James believed to have been the pastor of the church at Jerusalem.
Scripture shows it real clear how the Holy Spirit gave us the Revelation of things to come through each writer and their giving us what is to come.
Clothed in White Raiment is the promise for t hose who overcome, that would be the Church Believers we overcome through faith in Christ. So the 24 Elders meet that criteria, just as we see the believer rewarded in ! Corinthians 3.
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As for the I come quickly part I have answered it previously but let's do it again so you see what I believe you might have missed it.
2 Peter 3:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Peter begins by saying the heavens and earth we are living on right now will some day pass away.
Then notice verse 8 one day to the Lord is as a 1000 years and a thousand years as one day. Very clear Gods timetable, it has been 1 1/2 plus days since the Promise was made, if it takes two days for the quick return so be it. 2000 years to God is only two days and two days make it a very quick return. I believe we have a key here from Peter too that the age we live may take 2000 years in man's time which is to man a very long time but keep in mind it hasn't even been 2 days in God's time table.
You want to put things in man's perspective it but scripture must be seen from God's perspective that is why the Holy Spirit reveals God's plan so beautifully in Scripture.
Then Peter tells us God in this time is giving all men time to repent and turn to Him, He is not Slack concerening His Promise, what promise, the Promise to return for His church, He is Longsuffering toward mankind not willing that any should perish but all Come to repentence. The longer God waits to come back for the churhc the more time mankind has to repent and be saved. The time of Christ return is getting very close it could be 30 years and it could be less or more but I believe He is coming and I believe He will rapture the church. For that there is laid up for me a Crown of Righteousnes and not for me alone but for All who Love His Appearing.
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