An example of practical Calvinism

[Van]

The right view has been explained to you BIBLICALLY several times on several different threads as I recall, but you always call it "shuck and jive".

The right view is that God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, therefore God is not the author of sin. The view of Calvinism is that God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, therefore God is the author of sin. However, Calvinism irrationally says God can predestine every sinful thought and act, but somehow is not the author of that thought or action.

No one has ever explained that as being the right view, it is the irrational view of Calvinism.

 

[webdog]

The right view has been explained to you BIBLICALLY several times on several different threads as I recall, but you always call it "shuck and jive".

The so called "right view" is nothing but pure inconsistencies, hence the moniker shuck and jive.

God ether determines every action of creation, or He doesn't. My kids can understand that concept.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Sigh... once again... this says it better than I could:

Calvinism makes the author of sin and does not bring glory to Him.”

This is another recurring accusation but those who use this as an argument have the same if not a greater problem. If God merely created man and chose them based on their foreseen acts of faith, as their position holds, and God knew some of these would choose hell, then why did God go ahead and create them to begin with? In other words, their eternal destiny is fixed by some kind of impersonal fate since the future cannot be changed if God already knows it. If whether or not someone chooses God is already known by God then the future is certain, correct? But the biblical view is that the future is certain because of the eternal plan of a merciful and loving personal God. The foreseen faith view is based on an impersonal determinism. Something is determining their future choice, in that scheme, but not God. So what is it? If God already knows the outcome, meaning the future cannot be changed, then the future is fixed and there is no real freedom. Their choice is determined. So why did God, then, go ahead and create them? The biblical and philosophical problems with the foreseen faith position, then, are much, much greater than with the biblical one. They appear to be trying to get God off the hook rather than taking a hard look at the Scriptures.​

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Furthermore, I would answer your question by saying that God is not the author of sin. Ordaining something like sin to take place is not the same as being the author of it. For example, God ordained the crucifixion to take place yet God cannot be blamed for the secondary causes which made it happen – the evil acts of men which carried it out. God ordained the evil of the most unjust act in history to take place…See the following verse:​

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“…this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.” Acts 2:23​

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So God, although ordaining it, cannot be blamed for it. As humans, we always choose what we desire most. God does not compel us to make any decision, and does not compel us to disobey. We do so willingly. All God needs to do to harden us is remove His grace and leave us to our free will.​

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(from http://thegracecommunity.wordpress....uthor-of-sin-and-does-not-bring-glory-to-him/)
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[webdog]

Saying something over and over again doesn't make it true. In fact the above is a red herring...trying to turn the accusation back on the one making it by pointing out their perceived problem....while begging the question concerning compatibilism.

 

[Benjamin]

Saying something over and over again doesn't make it true. In fact the above is a red herring...trying to turn the accusation back on the one making it by pointing out their perceived problem....while begging the question concerning compatibilism.

Very nice assessment and rebuttal to the opponent's fallacious argument! Like. :thumbs:

 

[Mexdeaf]

Saying something over and over again doesn't make it true. In fact the above is a red herring...trying to turn the accusation back on the one making it by pointing out their perceived problem....while begging the question concerning compatibilism.

See folks, more shuck and jive with no verses to back it up.

- Sorry couldn't help myself. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Van]

Shuck and Jive

Sigh... once again... this says it better than I could:

Calvinism makes the author of sin and does not bring glory to Him.”

This is another recurring accusation but those who use this as an argument have the same if not a greater problem. If God merely created man and chose them based on their foreseen acts of faith, as their position holds, and God knew some of these would choose hell, then why did God go ahead and create them to begin with? In other words, their eternal destiny is fixed by some kind of impersonal fate since the future cannot be changed if God already knows it. If whether or not someone chooses God is already known by God then the future is certain, correct? But the biblical view is that the future is certain because of the eternal plan of a merciful and loving personal God. The foreseen faith view is based on an impersonal determinism. Something is determining their future choice, in that scheme, but not God. So what is it? If God already knows the outcome, meaning the future cannot be changed, then the future is fixed and there is no real freedom. Their choice is determined. So why did God, then, go ahead and create them? The biblical and philosophical problems with the foreseen faith position, then, are much, much greater than with the biblical one. They appear to be trying to get God off the hook rather than taking a hard look at the Scriptures.​

​

​

​

Furthermore, I would answer your question by saying that God is not the author of sin. Ordaining something like sin to take place is not the same as being the author of it. For example, God ordained the crucifixion to take place yet God cannot be blamed for the secondary causes which made it happen – the evil acts of men which carried it out. God ordained the evil of the most unjust act in history to take place…See the following verse:​

​

​

​

“…this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.” Acts 2:23​

​

​

​

So God, although ordaining it, cannot be blamed for it. As humans, we always choose what we desire most. God does not compel us to make any decision, and does not compel us to disobey. We do so willingly. All God needs to do to harden us is remove His grace and leave us to our free will.​

​

​

​

(from http://thegracecommunity.wordpress....uthor-of-sin-and-does-not-bring-glory-to-him/)
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Did the copy and paste answer my question? Does God know everything imaginable in the past, present and future? Yes. Does knowing what will happen predestine that occurrence? Yes. Therefore Calvinism teaches God predestines whatsoever comes to pass. However, here they claim God does not know everything, or knowing does not predestine. Shuck and jive.

Is my view that God choose people for salvation through foreseen faith? No. Shuck and Jive, debating the Arminian view rather than the biblical view of 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Now the Arminian view is God knowing the future does not predestine the future, therefore God does not predestine whatsoever comes to pass. They are spot on with God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

By the numbers, the copy and paste agrees with the Hypers, God's knowledge of the future fixes it and therefore God is the author of sin. Primary causes, secondary causes, whatever causes are all predestined by God and therefore God remains the author of sin. Then, according to Calvinism, God punishes sinners for the sins He predestined and caused.

Then it was claimed this was the biblical view. ROFLOL The foreseen faith view is flawed in my opinion, but is far more biblical then turning chosen through faith into chosen through no faith.

 

[Yeshua1]

Did the copy and paste answer my question? Does God know everything imaginable in the past, present and future? Yes. Does knowing what will happen predestine that occurrence? Yes. Therefore Calvinism teaches God predestines whatsoever comes to pass. However, here they claim God does not know everything, or knowing does not predestine. Shuck and jive.

Is my view that God choose people for salvation through foreseen faith? No. Shuck and Jive, debating the Arminian view rather than the biblical view of 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Now the Arminian view is God knowing the future does not predestine the future, therefore God does not predestine whatsoever comes to pass. They are spot on with God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

By the numbers, the copy and paste agrees with the Hypers, God's knowledge of the future fixes it and therefore God is the author of sin. Primary causes, secondary causes, whatever causes are all predestined by God and therefore God remains the author of sin. Then, according to Calvinism, God punishes sinners for the sins He predestined and caused.

Then it was claimed this was the biblical view. ROFLOL The foreseen faith view is flawed in my opinion, but is far more biblical then turning chosen through faith into chosen through no faith.

What is the basis of salvation van?
based upon Will of God, upon upon Him seeing your faith in jesus?

basing it upon foreknowledge of what you will choose to do, or based upon what he decided to do for you?

 

[Yeshua1]

Very nice assessment and rebuttal to the opponent's fallacious argument! Like. :thumbs:

Actually, no!

God is sovereign, despite the best efforts of man to try to assert 'free will!"

 

[Van]

What is the basis of salvation van?
based upon Will of God, upon upon Him seeing your faith in jesus?

basing it upon foreknowledge of what you will choose to do, or based upon what he decided to do for you?

All these off topic questions have been answered. But you keep asking them in an effort to change the subject. God's word says God desires all men to be saved, Calvinism says God desires some men to be saved. How did you get from all to some. Stop changing the subject, or respond to the answers I have provided several times.

God's word says God chose you for salvation through faith in the truth; Calvinism says God chose you for salvation through no faith in the truth. How did you get from faith to no faith? Stop changing the subject and answer the questions.

Calvinism cannot be defended, therefore Calvinists post shuck and jive, evasion and misrepresentation.

Did you see the absurdity of Compatibilism foisted yet again? This shifts discussion away from "if God predestines everything, and he does according to Calvinism, then why is God not the author of sin? The compatibilism ploy tries to shift the subject to total spiritual inability so if that mistaken doctrine were true, then folks would always choose to sin. It is a sidestep, just another shuck and jive. All they have is this must be true because that is true. And then that is true because this is true. Dancing between four fallacies, they shuck and they jive but they cannot hide from the truth, Calvinism is mistaken doctrine, unbiblical and a hindrance to the ministry of Christ.

 

[Van]

Shuck and Jive

Actually, no!

God is sovereign, despite the best efforts of man to try to assert 'free will!"

Note the vast number of fallacies presented in this post.

God is sovereign, meaning God predestines whatsoever comes to pass. This denies Jesus told us things happen by chance. That Ruth happened to be gleaming in Boaz's field.

We make plans but God directs our feet. Thus our will and ability to go our own way is limited by what God allows. However, God allows us to make plans, i.e. think independently of God caused thoughts and actions. Calvinism denies scripture after scripture that teach God allows us to make choices, such as between life and death.

Calvinism is man asserting he is not responsible from choosing to do evil because it was predestined. The Bible teaches we choose to sin and the choice was not dictated by predestination, for we make plans.

 

[Yeshua1]

Note the vast number of fallacies presented in this post.

God is sovereign, meaning God predestines whatsoever comes to pass. This denies Jesus told us things happen by chance. That Ruth happened to be gleaming in Boaz's field.

We make plans but God directs our feet. Thus our will and ability to go our own way is limited by what God allows. However, God allows us to make plans, i.e. think independently of God caused thoughts and actions. Calvinism denies scripture after scripture that teach God allows us to make choices, such as between life and death.

Calvinism is man asserting he is not responsible from choosing to do evil because it was predestined. The Bible teaches we choose to sin and the choice was not dictated by predestination, for we make plans.

God's Sovewreign does NOT mean that he directly determined all that happens, as that would make Him more as Allah, but that all things that ever happened were under his direct control!

And God does NOT live salvation to either chance or our free will, for he knows that we do NOT have the means within us as sinners to make that right choice, as our wills are grounded up into and bound by sinful desires/wants/passions!

 

[Van]

You cannot run away from your doctrine. Whatsoever comes to pass includes everything, primary causes, secondary causes, whatever causes. Yes the doctrine is bogus!! Why propound it??

Just answer these simple questions in your own mind. I know you will choose not to answer them in a post.

1) Does God know everything, past, present and future? Your answer is yes if you are a Calvinist.

2) Does God knowing something will happen predestine that future event? Your answer is yes if you are a Calvinist.

Therefore no matter how much lipstick you smear on the pig, your doctrine still makes God the author of sin, predestining each and every sin everyone commits. Is that doctrine bogus? Of course, but not one Calvinist will face up to the truth.

Next, like clockwork, you misrepresent my view. God does not leave salvation up to chance or the will of man. To suggest I said or suggested otherwise is simply slander. My view is God does not predestine everything, but He causes or allows everything. This is not rocket science.

Next, you say God knows we cannot make the right choices at any time. False and unbiblical. Psalm 14 says God looks to see if any are making the right choice, and in verse 5 God finds those who seek God as a refuge. Why can you not see the truth presented over and over in scripture. It is mind boggling.

 

[Rippon]

My view is God does not predestine everything, but He causes or allows everything.

In your view, do you equate cause and allow? Or do you mean He causes some things and allows others?

 

[Van]

Hi Rippon, I try to use words as defined in the dictionary. Thus cause does not equate with allow. To cause something to occur is to make whatever it is happen. To allow something to occur is to not intervene and block whatever is in view. Thus when we sin of our own volition, God does not cause that sin, but He allows us to sin. He could intervene if it so pleased Him, but He chooses to allow it for His purpose.

Thus in the main-stream and widely accepted view, God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. He is sovereign but He allows us to make plans within the purview He allows, thus He directs our feet.

 

[DrJamesAch]

God's Sovewreign does NOT mean that he directly determined all that happens, as that would make Him more as Allah, but that all things that ever happened were under his direct control!

And God does NOT live salvation to either chance or our free will, for he knows that we do NOT have the means within us as sinners to make that right choice, as our wills are grounded up into and bound by sinful desires/wants/passions!

If you carefully ponder your statements on this, you will see how inconsistent Calvinist interpretations are:

"My underdtanding os thatGod determines all things that ever happen, but that part of His determination is to work in and thru others desions, so that He ordains all that happens, as per His will, and works into that our decsions/choses to ahve his will get done!

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1998309&postcount=106

Not only is the current statement you make about determination inconsistent with what you said on the other post (above), but it is inconsistent with even Calvinist soteriology. Calvinists claim that man's decision is in no way involved in salvation, but yet here you say that His determination is to "work in and thru others de[c]isions". If God determines everything, then why would He need to "work through our decisions"? Whether you claim is direct or indirect is only a matter of semantics, but if God yet works through our decisions, that means we are allowed to decide. If God determines decisions, then we are not allowed to decide.

Nevertheless, your statement conflicts with not only what is and is not determined, but also within your own system of soteriology as to whether God works through decisions, or whether those decisions are irresistibly imposed upon us.

 

[Winman]

If you carefully ponder your statements on this, you will see how inconsistent Calvinist interpretations are:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1998309&postcount=106

Not only is the current statement you make about determination inconsistent with what you said on the other post (above), but it is inconsistent with even Calvinist soteriology. Calvinists claim that man's decision is in no way involved in salvation, but yet here you say that His determination is to "work in and thru others de[c]isions". If God determines everything, then why would He need to "work through our decisions"? Whether you claim is direct or indirect is only a matter of semantics, but if God yet works through our decisions, that means we are allowed to decide. If God determines decisions, then we are not allowed to decide.

Nevertheless, your statement conflicts with not only what is and is not determined, but also within your own system of soteriology as to whether God works through decisions, or whether those decisions are irresistibly imposed upon us.

It's double-talk, that's what they do. Calvinists say everything and nothing in one breath. They say something, and in the next breath contradict it.

When it comes down to it, Calvinism is nothing but mumbo jumbo. They think their doctrine is intellectual, it is convoluted and confused.

To me, the greatest question concerning Calvinism is why anyone would believe it? If you understand it at all, you MUST reject it.

 

[Yeshua1]

If you carefully ponder your statements on this, you will see how inconsistent Calvinist interpretations are:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1998309&postcount=106

Not only is the current statement you make about determination inconsistent with what you said on the other post (above), but it is inconsistent with even Calvinist soteriology. Calvinists claim that man's decision is in no way involved in salvation, but yet here you say that His determination is to "work in and thru others de[c]isions". If God determines everything, then why would He need to "work through our decisions"? Whether you claim is direct or indirect is only a matter of semantics, but if God yet works through our decisions, that means we are allowed to decide. If God determines decisions, then we are not allowed to decide.

Nevertheless, your statement conflicts with not only what is and is not determined, but also within your own system of soteriology as to whether God works through decisions, or whether those decisions are irresistibly imposed upon us.

God freely dtermines as to whom are the Elect, the Ones chosen by him to be placed into Christ, whose sins will be fully paid for by the death of Jesus, so He as absolute control over that aspect of saving sinners, but still we who are enabled and quickened by the HS do respond by receiving jesus and are saved!

ALl sinners can do to get saved are to call upon the name of the lord, and ONLY those whom he freely elects to do such will be able to do such!

 

[Yeshua1]

It's double-talk, that's what they do. Calvinists say everything and nothing in one breath. They say something, and in the next breath contradict it.

When it comes down to it, Calvinism is nothing but mumbo jumbo. They think their doctrine is intellectual, it is convoluted and confused.

To me, the greatest question concerning Calvinism is why anyone would believe it? If you understand it at all, you MUST reject it.

Well...
Paul and the rest of the Apostles wrote describing it in varying degrees, so were they in the wrong also?

 

[Mexdeaf]

When it comes down to it, Calvinism is nothing but mumbo jumbo. They think their doctrine is intellectual, it is convoluted and confused.

To me, the greatest question concerning Calvinism is why anyone would believe it? If you understand it at all, you MUST reject it.

[hijack]That's exactly how I feel about KJVO![/hijack]