An Inclusivist Church

[DaChaser1]

Jesus opened the mind to the people who ALREADY BELIEVED. THEY BELIEVED IN JESUS FIRST BEFORE THEIR MINDS WERE OPENED.

Jesus' disciples were already his disciples first before he opened their minds to understand the scriptures.

You disagree with paul, as he stated that the veil/spiritual hardness/blindness is takenn away WHEN one places faith in Christ, so God opens up our minds/hearts and THEN we receive Christ by faith and believe!

 

[Moriah]

You disagree with paul, as he stated that the veil/spiritual hardness/blindness is takenn away WHEN one places faith in Christ, so God opens up our minds/hearts and THEN we receive Christ by faith and believe!

You just got caught in your tangled beliefs, but you still do not see it.

 

[DaChaser1]

You just got caught in your tangled beliefs, but you still do not see it.

A person needs to turn to Christ, to have his blinders removed, but ONLY when God enables us can we turn and believe!

 

[Moriah]

Why did the gentiles who believed in acts actually believe in what theyheard?

God had already selected/chose them out and enabled them to believe it!

The gentiles that were not preappointed to eternal life heard same message, nothing happened!

The Gentiles believed when they heard the message. They heard the message and they believed it, because they wanted the perfection they could have in Christ. See Hebrews 7:18-19.

Through Jesus, we believe in God, because God raised Jesus from the dead and glorified him--So our FAITH and HOPE are in God. Read 1 Peter 1:21. We too want eternal life.

We long for an immortal physical body, we desire, we hope for the redemption of our bodies. For in this HOPE we turn to God and are saved. See Romans 8:23-25.

Now FAITH is CONFIDENCE in what we HOPE for and assurance about what we do not see. Read Hebrews 11:1.

See Titus 1:2; and, 3:7. We hear the message and have HOPE of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time.

The Gentiles believed and had hope because of Jesus’ words--telling us we are no longer excluded Gentiles, no longer excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, no longer are we without HOPE and without God in the world, see Colossians 1:4-6.

Read and learn.

 

[Moriah]

A person needs to turn to Christ, to have his blinders removed, but ONLY when God enables us can we turn and believe!

You have been blinded by Calvinists so much so that you cannot see the truth. Tell me, how are those people not guilty if it is God who would not MAKE THEM TURN TO CHRIST FIRST LIKE YOU SAY HE IS SUPPOSED TO DO?

 

[DaChaser1]

You have been blinded by Calvinists so much so that you cannot see the truth. Tell me, how are those people not guilty if it is God who would not MAKE THEM TURN TO CHRIST FIRST LIKE YOU SAY HE IS SUPPOSED TO DO?

we have 2 fathers before God, who were tested by him...

Adam , the Father after our flesh, failed, and as our representative before god, ALL became corrupted in sin, spiritually dead...

Jesus, second adam, is spiritual father, and gives etrnal life to all who belive on him...

 

[Moriah]

The Gentiles believed when they heard the message. They heard the message and they believed it, because they wanted the perfection they could have in Christ. See Hebrews 7:18-19.

Through Jesus, we believe in God, because God raised Jesus from the dead and glorified him--So our FAITH and HOPE are in God. Read 1 Peter 1:21. We too want eternal life.

We long for an immortal physical body, we desire, we hope for the redemption of our bodies. For in this HOPE we turn to God and are saved. See Romans 8:23-25.

Now FAITH is CONFIDENCE in what we HOPE for and assurance about what we do not see. Read Hebrews 11:1.

See Titus 1:2; and, 3:7. We hear the message and have HOPE of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time.

The Gentiles believed and had hope because of Jesus’ words--telling us we are no longer excluded Gentiles, no longer excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, no longer are we without HOPE and without God in the world, see Colossians 1:4-6.

Read and learn.

DaChaser1,

You have nothing to say about being taught an important message about HOW WE BELIEVE?

It is not anything like what your Calvinists teachers taught you.

 

[glfredrick]

You have been blinded by Calvinists so much so that you cannot see the truth. Tell me, how are those people not guilty if it is God who would not MAKE THEM TURN TO CHRIST FIRST LIKE YOU SAY HE IS SUPPOSED TO DO?

I'm not at all sure that it is we Calvinists who are in fact blind.

You are once again denying the cross. Christ is not just our "example" and we do not merely "hope." We have no hope unless our sin was crucified with Christ. We have no hope unless we are born-again-from-above in a supernatural salvific event that includes election, effectual call, justification, regeneration, faith/repentence, adoption, sealing, sanctification, perseverence, and finally, glorification.

You do not have a born-again hope. You have a very human religious hope, and that is no hope at all.

What do you do with the passage:

Philip. 2:10 (KJV)
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Doesn't sound all that much like a "loving example" but rather like a Warrior King who demands utter and complete obedience. I don't see Jesus offering people a choice at that time, and neither does He offer a choice while we yet reside in the flesh. That is an illusion because we are already dead -- condemned -- and without Christ, and Him crucified and raised from the dead there is NO salvation.

Of course, on the day that every knee bows and every tongue confesses Christ, it will be too late for those who did not do so before their physical death. There is no Catholic purgatory where we might have as long as it takes to pay pennance for our sins until we are cleansed. No, praise God, Jesus paid it ALL -- once and forever -- and unless or until we are born anew we cannot access that payment and His imputed righteousness.

And, no... I've not been poisoned by Calvinists. THAT IS THE GOSPEL AS FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES that you claim to know and cite.

 

[Moriah]

I'm not at all sure that it is we Calvinists who are in fact blind.

All you see is Calvinistic doctrines, and you deny the truth about Jesus dying for the sins of the world so that all men have a chance to be saved.

You are once again denying the cross.

No way am I denying the cross. That is a statement not justified.

Christ is not just our "example" and we do not merely "hope." We have no hope unless our sin was crucified with Christ.

I quoted you scripture on why people believe. What does we have no hope unless our sin was crucified with Christ have to do with you trying to disprove what I say?

We have no hope unless we are born-again-from-above in a supernatural salvific event that includes election, effectual call, justification, regeneration, faith/repentence, adoption, sealing, sanctification, perseverence, and finally, glorification.

Faith comes from HEARING the word. There is no scripture in the Bible that says God saves us before we believe. There is no scripture that says God makes us believe.

And, no... I've not been poisoned by Calvinists. THAT IS THE GOSPEL AS FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES that you claim to know and cite.

The scriptures tell us where faith comes from. The scriptures tell us what draws us to God. The scriptures give hope that is where hope comes to us from. We can believe in God after learning of Him. We are not saved before we believe, as Calvinists teach.

 

[Matt Black]

Despite my running battles with The Biblicist and others over Calvinism, I would not wish to exclude those who believe this way from my church. As I have stated, my mom believes in OSAS. Also, even though I do not hold to the Pentecostal/Charismatic interpretation of baptism in the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues, I would not want to exclude a person who believes this from my church. My oldest sister, though raised a Baptist, is now a Pentecostal.

I am passionate about my beliefs in these areas, and I want to be a part of a local church that accepts the way I believe, but I would also wish that the church accepted the way my mom and sister believe, also.

I only know of one denomination that contains such a wide divergence of belief -- from Arminian/Wesleyan, Calvinist, Lutheran-type beliefs, Charismatic, Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, etc, and that would be the Anglican Communion. The Anglican Communion also has Celtic influence.

That might be where I belong, except for this: I can't abide the Episcopal Church; they are not pro-life, and they welcome practicing homosexuals into the ministry. These are just two of the reasons I couldn't belong there. I did join TEC years ago but didn't remain. And the only conservative Anglican church, an AMiA church, is an hour's drive from me, in Oxford. I would have a problem with infant baptism, but that wouldn't keep me out of the church.

Anyway, my question is: Could you be a part of a church that accepted your beliefs but that also accepted the beliefs of others which might be diametrically opposed to yours?

You see, I could be a member of a church (including Baptist) that allowed OSAS but that also allowed the belief that one can lose salvation.

I'd like to hear opinions on this; whether you could be a member of such an inclusivist church -- and by inclusivist I don't mean acceptance of abortion or homosexuality.

If I can drag the thread away from the usual tired old Calvinist-Arminian mutual loathing society (makes a change from Catholic-bashing I suppose...) and back to your OP....

I would say to not judge the Anglican Communion by the TEC, as the doctrines and practices they are pursuing are not mandated by the Anglican Communion; indeed most Anglicans worldwide (me included) regard them as having left the Anglican Communion. Rather, I would suggest you treat the Anglicans much as you would the Baptists ie: treat each congregation on its own merits; after all, it is the congregation (of whatever denomination we are considering) with whom you will have the overwhelming majority of your Christian fellowship and interaction. My own Anglican congo, for example, is here and you will see that as far as doctrine is concerned, there is not a lot with which most BB members would take issue (he presumes!). There are not a few orthodox Anglican congregations in North America which have broken away from TEC and obtained 'alternative episcopal oversight' ie: under a conservative Bishop and you may want to investigate one of those.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

If I can drag the thread away from the usual tired old Calvinist-Arminian mutual loathing society (makes a change from Catholic-bashing I suppose...) and back to your OP....

I would say to not judge the Anglican Communion by the TEC, as the doctrines and practices they are pursuing are not mandated by the Anglican Communion; indeed most Anglicans worldwide (me included) regard them as having left the Anglican Communion. Rather, I would suggest you treat the Anglicans much as you would the Baptists ie: treat each congregation on its own merits; after all, it is the congregation (of whatever denomination we are considering) with whom you will have the overwhelming majority of your Christian fellowship and interaction. My own Anglican congo, for example, is here and you will see that as far as doctrine is concerned, there is not a lot with which most BB members would take issue (he presumes!). There are not a few orthodox Anglican congregations in North America which have broken away from TEC and obtained 'alternative episcopal oversight' ie: under a conservative Bishop and you may want to investigate one of those.

Matt, thanks for your post. I looked through the website you linked to -- very interesting and informative.

On my "Church of the Nazarene vs. Anglican" thread, I talk about TEC and break-away Anglicanism. There is an AMiA (Anglican Mission in the Americas) congregation about an hour's drive from me that I'm interested in. I've talked with the pastor; he's British An hour is along way to drive to go to church, but I just can't see going to a TEC church again.

 

[Matt Black]

Technically, AMIA are not a 'breakaway' from Anglicanism, as they are under the oversight of the Anglican Province of Rwanda and therefore a full part of the Anglican Communion; they are of course a 'breakaway' from TEC but, then again, the vast majority of Anglicans regard TEC as a 'breakaway' from Anglicanism....

 

[Alive in Christ]

DaChaser.

my church, Stony Creek Church of Utica, check out our web site, has senior pastor who is evangelical non cal, elders cal, membership both sides of that question, and have some holding to gifts operating today/others saying all ceased!

Sounds like you have a good healthy church there. :godisgood:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Originally Posted by DaChaser1
So far, nothing major has happened, at least not what I was aware of!

Think what helps us is that a majority of us, including the pastor, came out from RCC circles!

I came out from Pentacostal church, so have wide variety of backgrounds in plan!!

This comment was then posted...

It's good to know that a "mixed bag"(no offfense intended) of doctrines can come together in harmony. Hallelujah.....

And I say, yes indeed. Its a wonderful thing.

 

[DaChaser1]

All you see is Calvinistic doctrines, and you deny the truth about Jesus dying for the sins of the world so that all men have a chance to be saved.



No way am I denying the cross. That is a statement not justified.


I quoted you scripture on why people believe. What does we have no hope unless our sin was crucified with Christ have to do with you trying to disprove what I say?


Faith comes from HEARING the word. There is no scripture in the Bible that says God saves us before we believe. There is no scripture that says God makes us believe.


The scriptures tell us where faith comes from. The scriptures tell us what draws us to God. The scriptures give hope that is where hope comes to us from. We can believe in God after learning of Him. We are not saved before we believe, as Calvinists teach.

So you believe that a dead person has inherit faith residing in him?

What is the basis of your salvation, that YOU heard, YOU responding by YOUR faith, and that YOU co operated with God and got saved?