Ananais and Sapphira...lost?

[EdSutton]

BTW, if you want to play dueling PhD's, I can play that game as well.

You said "BTW, if you want to play dueling PhD's, I can play that game as well." Tag your it. .:tongue3:

" Can I referee this? "Twe-e-e-e-et!" "There are two fouls, here! First call, B_PT, it is 'Tag, you're it.' Second call Hope, you write: 'This is different than Acts 8:7: ... This is similar to Acts 16:16:... .' In a contrasting position, 'A' is different from 'B' (by contrast) 'A' is similar to 'C'! The penalties offset. Replay the down!" :tongue3: - Language Cop

Ed

 

[2BHizown]

What were you suggesting I examine to know whether I be in the faith?

Read: 2 Cor.13:5
also read 1 John which is a test of genuine christianity.

 

[J. Jump]

I do know that in this part of the country I doubt if any denomination here would accept your doctrine and most will accept mine.

I guess it depends on what you deem "this part of the country." There are several kingdom believers in Tennessee. Several in Minnesota, Indiana. Is that part of "this country"?

You keep putting me down as if you are so high but those who sit in high places are the easiest ones to knock off.

Bob please explain to me exactly how I have "put you down"? I have not called you a name. I have not made up anything and said you said something you didn't like you did with me. Exactly how have I put you down?

Your beliefs are so far from all the rest on this board that it is pitiful.

Actually that's not true at all. There are several kingdom believers on this board.

I wonder why you believe you were shown a different way than all the rest.

I don't have any idea why God has chosen to give me eyes to see and ears to hear, but I am EXTREMELY thankful that He did!

 

[James_Newman]

Read: 2 Cor.13:5
also read 1 John which is a test of genuine christianity.

Ok, lets read 1John.

1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Are you sure you are saved? If you are, what are you basing that assurance on? Is it the fact that you have passed the test of 1 John 3:9?

 

[EdSutton]

Ed, it turns red what ever word I put in search engine and would be very hard to go through and take the red out. I can't see where its a problem as typing in huge letters is what I consider rude.

It was meant mostly in jest. I cannot even put something in but have to have my lovely and talented bride do such things. I just get to type on the thing a while.

Ed

 

[James_Newman]

Luke 17:12-19
12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go show yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

The Samaritan that returned to worship Jesus, was it his fruit that was evidence of his cleansing? Or was the fruit the response of a grateful heart to something that was otherwise evident to the man? What of the other nine, who did not return to give God glory? Did they not have faith to be made whole? It says they were all cleansed, what acted in the place of faith for the other nine? Or were they perhaps false-cleansed-professors?

 

[EdSutton]

Ok, lets read 1John.

1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Are you sure you are saved? If you are, what are you basing that assurance on? Is it the fact that you have passed the test of 1 John 3:9?

I John 3:9? Hmmmm! Good verse! Here's a couple more good passages, and one individual verse from the same book.

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (I John 1:5-10 - NKJV, text only)

How about these verses?

5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? ... 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.
20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (I John 5: 5, 9-21 - NKJV, text only)

So what is it, James_Newman and 2BHizown? Is there a contradiction, here? Does one of these passages, along with I John 3:9 'cancel' the other? Does not I John 5:10, 18 contradict one another? Or is the real problem too often, poor exegesis, translations that are not easily done into English, and 'proof-texting'? I suggest that it is the last sentence that is the real problem.

Ed

P.S. I have heard it said and seen in print on the BB this statement. -

"A text, out of context, is a pretext for a proof-text."

I agree.

 

[James_Newman]

I John 3:9? Hmmmm! Good verse! Here's a couple more good passages, and one individual verse from the same book. How about these verses? So what is it, James_Newman and 2BHizown? Is there a contradiction, here? Does one of these passages, along with I John 3:9 'cancel' the other? Does not I John 5:10, 18 contradict one another? Or is the real problem too often, poor exegesis, translations that are not easily done into English, and 'proof-texting'? I suggest that it is the last sentence that is the real problem.

Ed

P.S. I have heard it said and seen in print on the BB this statement. -

"A text, out of context, is a pretext for a proof-text."

I agree.

I think it is absolutely a problem of context and a problem of assuming things that the bible does not explicitly teach. The context of 1John is written to believers. If it is a test, it is not a test for making sure Jesus really died for your sins, but for making sure that as a believer, bought with the blood, you are walking in perfect faith and pleasing God, not for the purpose of being/staying saved but for receiving the inheritance and as he states in 1:4, that your joy may be full.

 

[EdSutton]

Well, brother I have to disagree with you, not only on the basis of scripture but on the basis of my own experience as a believer.

2Pe 2:20
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

The sins that I committed as a backslidden Christian were far worse than sins I committed before I got saved. It's all well and good for pharisees to beat their chests and thank the Lord they are not like other men, or even this publican, but sometimes I wonder what people ever did that they needed to be saved from in the first place, if they do not realize that they are in any danger of falling back into the vomit. It's not in vain that Paul warns he who thinks he stands to take heed lest he fall.

How strange to think that a man can labor for years under the assumption that he was forgiven on the basis of God's sacrifice only to find out that because he was tempted by a strange woman and led away by his lusts, that he was never really saved to begin with. Praise God he found out when he did, he could have gone to his grave thinking he was a Christian. I guess he can just get saved now and try again, but oh how awful that the 'fruit' he thought was evidence of his conversion the first time was just an illusion. How can he even think to trust whatever fruits he is able to bring forth from this time on? He is doomed to live his life in a miserable state of no assurance, because assurance based on a mans own works is nothing but a false assurance.

Uh- I thought one could only "get saved" once. At least that is what I think I read in Hebrews. I agree, James. It is absolutely astounding to me how many are in the "salvation stealing" and "assurance stealing" business. Never seems to be a shortage of them, does it? Too bad there are not more "dispensers" and "disciplers" and fewer "thieves".

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

That's the problem that I talked about earlier. For a great many folks their security is absolutely stripped away because they are constantly worried about whether their works are good enough and whether they have enough of them.

It puts people back in bondage. It's terribly sad. It doesn't allow folks to move forward.

Yup! Sho' 'nuff do!

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Tell me J. Jump; Why do you resent me so much? Also, I am sure that you are smart enough to know that among every gathering they had and we have there are unsaved among us. You do acknowledge that don't you?

I'm not J.Jump, but will use this opening to say that I don't 'resent' any individuals, per se. But personally, I do "highly resent" 'religious speak'. often in what I hear. We have used words and phrases so long and so often that they have become 'canonized' to the point of actually being commonly though of as 'Bible says', when in fact, the Bible may say no such thing. Some of these words and phrases are, including a couple of these that I have seen on this thread, are the word 'convert', in an active sense, when every instance that I've seen in the Bible is passive - i.e. "be converted", for God does 100% of the convertin'; "Either Jesus is Lord of all, or He is not Lord at all!", another statement one will not find in Scripture: and the two 'oldies but goodie', "Repent of your sins", and "Make Jesus Lord". Repent in Scripture? Absolutely! Multiple times! 'Repent of your sins?' Those words, as a phrase, are not found one time in Scripture. Does Scripture ever say anything about us "making Jesus Lord'? Nope, but it sure says God did it! And I'd even suggest that the idea that one can improve on this, by "helpin' God out", makes Satan's arrogance pale by comparison.

Ed

 

[J. Jump]

makes Satan's arrogance pale by comparison.

It certainly makes his job easier, when he has so much of Christendom spreading his confusion for him

 

[EdSutton]

Couldn't find Acts 11:48, so don't know what you're referring to there.
Obviously a typo.

I take it then you reject Acts 5:31 as a proof text that repentance is a gift, since the word used is granted, not given. But isn't a grant a gift? And further, even though Peter is speaking to Jews and granting repentance to Israel, how can God grant to a group without granting to individual members of that group? He also granted forgiveness of sin to the same group, and to the same individuals in that group, Israel. Can God forgive a nation and not forgive individuals in that nation?

The other passage is II Timothy 2:25, where the KJV specifical translates as "peradventure God will give them repentance..." Here, Paul is speaking not of Jews or Gentiles, but of a specific kind of people, which he urges Timothy, "instructing those who oppose themselves..." Again, I raise the question, how can God give repentance to a group of people without giving it to individuals within that group?

Either way, the principle is established. Repentance is a gift.

The verse should have been Acts 11:18. My typo, sorry.
Both the NKJV, the version I normally use, and the HCSB render "δωη" or "δω" (No real difference, here, except one ending is Subjunctive, and the other Optative) as "grant", in II Tim. 2:25.
And while I understand what you are saying as to "a grant" being "a gift", as in the noun usage, "to grant" as a verb carries more the idea of "to permit, or to allow", in English, at least, which is what I think is more applicable, here, especially in this context. The word is "διδωμι" ("didomi"), which has multiple connotations. Among these are give, grant, allow, cause, etc.
And I do not agree that "repentance", per se, is a "gift". Assuming that (the state of) "repentance" is the result of (one who) "repents", as a verb, as far as I'm aware, in every case in Scripture, "repent" is in the 'active', never in the 'passive'. Hence, God repents, man repents, but I cannot find that "God repents man", if you follow me. As I recently posted on this thread about 'convert', I would place this (repent) in contrast to "convert", which is properly always found in the passive.
Finally, as to the group/individual idea, if God 'gave' repentance to the group, hence to all individuals, then would not all in these groups, in these cases, Gentiles and Israel therefore be saved? Gotta' run. :wavey: Eatin' time, when all Calvinists become Arminians, three meals a day! :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Tell me J. Jump; Why do you resent me so much? Also, I am sure that you are smart enough to know that among every gathering they had and we have there are unsaved among us. You do acknowledge that don't you?
I'm not J.Jump, but will use this opening to say that I don't 'resent' any individuals, per se. But personally, I do "highly resent" 'religious speak'. often in what I hear. We have used words and phrases so long and so often that they have become 'canonized' to the point of actually being commonly though of as 'Bible says', when in fact, the Bible may say no such thing. Some of these words and phrases are, including a couple of these that I have seen on this thread, are the word 'convert', in an active sense, when every instance that I've seen in the Bible is passive - i.e. "be converted", for God does 100% of the convertin'; "Either Jesus is Lord of all, or He is not Lord at all!", another statement one will not find in Scripture: and the two 'oldies but goodie', "Repent of your sins", and "Make Jesus Lord". Repent in Scripture? Absolutely! Multiple times! 'Repent of your sins?' Those words, as a phrase, are not found one time in Scripture. Does Scripture ever say anything about us "making Jesus Lord'? Nope, but it sure says God did it! And I'd even suggest that the idea that one can improve on this, by "helpin' God out", makes Satan's arrogance pale by comparison.

Ed

I don't know if you are referring to me or what, but if so then state what I misquoted please. Also, I see you misquoted yourself at the bottom of this page so what goes around comes around.

Also Ed;
As a whole nation God did Give the gift of repentance so that they could repent if they chose. Before hand they were aliens to the commonwealth of Israel, without God and having no Hope in the world but gave Gave them the gift of repentance so they too could be saved.


Act 11:18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

 

[Hope of Glory]

John told us that he came to preach the gospel that we could know we have eternal life! My hope is Christ is a sure thing, there are no questions about it!

Talk about a contradictory statement! Is it sure or is it a hope?

 

[Hope of Glory]

You don't know people on this board very well. You are very pompous and trust more in your education rather than in Christ. At least that is my assessment.
I am not going to tell you how many degrees I have, nor how many years of post-secondary education I have taken, but I willing to guess that (considering your age which is in your profile) that it is more than you.
As far as I am concerned I was saved as an adult and have been studying at the foot of Jesus for more years than you have been alive. If I were you I would tread softly.
DHK

You are, of course, quite correct.

My statement was rhetorical, pointing out the absurdity of trotting out a long list of scholars that agrees with what I'm saying, at which point he'll trot out a long list that agrees with him, and pretty soon we'd have the equivalent of a 3rd grade playground fight.

I did not mean to imply that I would compare my credentials with him, nor anything along that line. I was trying to point out that "because I said so!" is not proper debating techniques, and that I would prefer to look at what Scripture says and have this discussion/debate. It seems to me that most of the people involved in these debates are able to do so reasonably, even if there is no concensus at the conclusion, but a few have to derail the debate by being asinine.

I appreciate your level-headedness, as well as that of others who are capable of having a rational, reasonable discussion.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

God is the source and supply of all our lives, as demonstrated by his calling and equipping his people for service in a covenantal relationship with him. The call of God takes place by virtue of the work of Christ, and the service takes place by means of the Spirit. There is no synergism in the covenant in which God contributes his part and we do ours in order to accomplish something together that is greater than either of our efforts in isolation. God is not looking for our help. The importance of the cross in salvation and on the work of the Spirit in justification and sanctification makes it evident that the initiative, origin, and sustenance of the new covenant is due solely to the unilateral and merciful work of God on behalf of his people.

It is the Spirit, in bringing one to Christ for forgiveness of sins, who brings into being the new life of the new creation. One can claim faith in Christ and remain faithful to him only by the power of the Holy Spirit. Our covenantal relationship with God is from beginning to end based on God’s previous act of redemption and continuing acts of provision. This is the great indicative reality of the gospel.

At the same time the fact that we are people of the new covenant drives home the absolute necessity of living in obedience to God’s commands as the expression of our faith in his promises. Keeping God’s commands is what trusting in God as the source and supply of our lives looks like in everyday life. Given God’s justifying and sanctifying work in the lives of his people as guaranteed and brought about by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, there is no excuse for habitually failing to trust God’s gracious provisions and promises in Christ. Faith that trusts God to meet one’s needs invariably expresses itself through love as the fulfillment of the law. (Gal. 5:6, 14; Rom. 13:10).

As I had mentioned earlier, God commands his people not to steal because he has committed himself to meet their needs. To steal is to disbelieve God’s promise in this regard. As some of you have argued, God commands his people not to covet because he has already promised to satisfy their deepest longings, ultimately in himself (Eph. 5:5; Col. 3:5). Therefore to say all that I need to be happy is found in something material is to commit idolatry by failing to trust God’s covenantal commitment that he will be enough for us.

The fundamental point concerning our covenantal relationship with God in this regard is that every command from him is a call to trust in his promises and provisions, culminating in his greatest provision, the joy and delight that come from experiencing the transforming effect of his personal presence. For this reason, although God’s provisions and promises are all undeserved as unconditional gifts of grace, they are at the same time conditional upon the obedience that comes from faith (Rom. 1:5, 15:18, 16:26).

For as Paul warned the Corinthians, “Do you knot know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?” (1Cor. 6:9). We are saved “by grace… through faith” as the “gift of God,” a gift that includes being re-created in Christ Jesus in order that we might do “good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do” (Eph. 2:8-10). The necessity of obedience to God’s commands, as the expression of faith in God’s promises, is therefore not works righteousness, since both the promises of God and the power to trust them are gifts of God’s unmerited, saving grace. IN OTHER WORDS, God gives what he demands, and we he demands is the obedience that flows from faith (Rom. 1:5, 16:26).

Persistent disobedience, without concern for repentance, is the life of unbelief. God’s wrath is meted out on all who dishonor God by a hardened refusal to acknowledge his provisions and trust in his promises (Rom. 1:18-21), which shows itself in an inability to obey and callousness toward his commands.

 

[Jarthur001]

God is the source and supply of all our lives, as demonstrated by his calling and equipping his people for service in a covenantal relationship with him. The call of God takes place by virtue of the work of Christ, and the service takes place by means of the Spirit. There is no synergism in the covenant in which God contributes his part and we do ours in order to accomplish something together that is greater than either of our efforts in isolation. God is not looking for our help. The importance of the cross in salvation and on the work of the Spirit in justification and sanctification makes it evident that the initiative, origin, and sustenance of the new covenant is due solely to the unilateral and merciful work of God on behalf of his people.

It is the Spirit, in bringing one to Christ for forgiveness of sins, who brings into being the new life of the new creation. One can claim faith in Christ and remain faithful to him only by the power of the Holy Spirit. Our covenantal relationship with God is from beginning to end based on God’s previous act of redemption and continuing acts of provision. This is the great indicative reality of the gospel.

At the same time the fact that we are people of the new covenant drives home the absolute necessity of living in obedience to God’s commands as the expression of our faith in his promises. Keeping God’s commands is what trusting in God as the source and supply of our lives looks like in everyday life. Given God’s justifying and sanctifying work in the lives of his people as guaranteed and brought about by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, there is no excuse for habitually failing to trust God’s gracious provisions and promises in Christ. Faith that trusts God to meet one’s needs invariably expresses itself through love as the fulfillment of the law. (Gal. 5:6, 14; Rom. 13:10).

As I had mentioned earlier, God commands his people not to steal because he has committed himself to meet their needs. To steal is to disbelieve God’s promise in this regard. As some of you have argued, God commands his people not to covet because he has already promised to satisfy their deepest longings, ultimately in himself (Eph. 5:5; Col. 3:5). Therefore to say all that I need to be happy is found in something material is to commit idolatry by failing to trust God’s covenantal commitment that he will be enough for us.

The fundamental point concerning our covenantal relationship with God in this regard is that every command from him is a call to trust in his promises and provisions, culminating in his greatest provision, the joy and delight that come from experiencing the transforming effect of his personal presence. For this reason, although God’s provisions and promises are all undeserved as unconditional gifts of grace, they are at the same time conditional upon the obedience that comes from faith (Rom. 1:5, 15:18, 16:26).

For as Paul warned the Corinthians, “Do you knot know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?” (1Cor. 6:9). We are saved “by grace… through faith” as the “gift of God,” a gift that includes being re-created in Christ Jesus in order that we might do “good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do” (Eph. 2:8-10). The necessity of obedience to God’s commands, as the expression of faith in God’s promises, is therefore not works righteousness, since both the promises of God and the power to trust them are gifts of God’s unmerited, saving grace. IN OTHER WORDS, God gives what he demands, and we he demands is the obedience that flows from faith (Rom. 1:5, 16:26).

Persistent disobedience, without concern for repentance, is the life of unbelief. God’s wrath is meted out on all who dishonor God by a hardened refusal to acknowledge his provisions and trust in his promises (Rom. 1:18-21), which shows itself in an inability to obey and callousness toward his commands.

Very good post. We have a God that has BOUND Himself to the covenant. (heb)
We have a personal relationship God.

 

[James_Newman]

Why do a Calvinist's writings always have to sound like a stereo installation manual? You start your post with a flawed argument, that believing is doing something. Believing is not helping God save you. I don't know what you think is the importance of the cross in salvation. For me, the cross is salvation. Jesus shedding His blood and dying on that cross is what God did to save me. If I believe that, Jesus said I am going to be raised up on the last day.

It is the Spirit, in bringing one to Christ for forgiveness of sins, who brings into being the new life of the new creation. One can claim faith in Christ and remain faithful to him only by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I'll go one up on you.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

But you seem to have the wrong understanding of faith. You speak of faith as some magic substance that you either have or you don't. Faith is something that we possess by degrees, as Christ said if you have faith as the grain of a mustard seed. And faith is not all encompassing. You may have faith in one area, and lack faith in another. And you may have presumption calling itself faith.

 

[J. Jump]

they are at the same time conditional upon the obedience that comes from faith (Rom. 1:5, 15:18, 16:26).

Sorry but the word conditional and spiritual salvation do not and can not go hand in hand or what one is in fact saying is that Christ's work on the cross was not sufficient and that it must be His works plus my obedience equal salvation, which definitely not what the Bible teaches.

But maybe my undeducated mind just wasn't able to get around the complexities of your post It sure sounds like works salvation to me.

Persistent disobedience, without concern for repentance, is the life of unbelief. God’s wrath is meted out on all who dishonor God by a hardened refusal to acknowledge his provisions and trust in his promises (Rom. 1:18-21), which shows itself in an inability to obey and callousness toward his commands.

Ah something we can finally agree upon. And guess what Christians that live in persistent disobedience without concern for repentance are living a life of unbelief and there are consequences for leading a life of unbelief, just as their were consequences for the unbelief on the part of the children of Israel in the wilderness.