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Anathema and the RCC

utilyan

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Does the Church condemn those who disagree with its teachings?

Ask any Catholic and he will say "of course not!".

The RCC has declared "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema" (session VI, can. 9).

Sounds like a condemnation correct? Not so fast, there is an explanation of course from the RCC.

"When the Catholic Church uses the term, such as at the Council of Trent and in its official documents, it is in the sense of excommunication or being cut off from the life-giving unity of the Church. If someone knowingly and publicly denies a defined (de fidei definita) doctrine of the Catholic Church, he can be formally declared to be excommunicated, meaning that he no longer enjoys unity with the Catholic Church."

You see? The RCC is not condemning anyone to hell, you just won't enjoy the unity with the Catholic Church. They go on to say...

"This use of the term anathema has a very precise meaning: Let him be cut off from the Church, not let him be damned to hell. And this is done by the Church in her wisdom as a way of trying to bring the one in error to his senses"

That's all. The RCC just wants you to come to your senses, they are not condemning anyone to hell.

All sounds good right? Well, there is a bit more to it than that. The RCC does not stop short of condemnation for the unrepentant sinner opposing their declarations.

Here is the complete paragraph, I did tease with holding a little back...

"This use of the term anathema has a very precise meaning: Let him be cut off from the Church, not let him be damned to hell. And this is done by the Church in her wisdom as a way of trying to bring the one in error to his senses - before it's too late and he is damned to hell by virtue of his obstinacy."

There it is, as the RCC has said,
"The Catholic Church has no power to damn anyone to hell (that, of course, is each individual's unique prerogative - if you go to hell, you choose to go there),"

"An anathema or excommunication is designed to remind the sinner of his eventual fate if he doesn't repent. That's why the Church is always ready to absolve and receive back the repentant sinner. That's why those who willingly disobey the Church's teachings may be anathematized - so that they will recognize the grave danger of such a course and be willing to return to the fold."

Thus, if you are a Protestant, Baptist or any other Christian who says your are saved by your faith alone in Jesus Christ, according to the RCC, you are choosing to damn yourself to hell.

Resource: Does the Church condemn those who disagree with its teachings? | Catholic Answers



Ok so one thread you accuse that CATHOLICS are too loose allowing the salvation of Muslims, Athiest, Jews, And now you are saying we are exclusive to salvation.

MAKE up your mind.

Pick one, and call the other a LIE.

Your going to get slammed in this debate and you know it.
 

utilyan

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The Catholic Church is a master of doublespeak/doublethink.

What constitutes faith according to the Catholic Church?

Not only belief in the Bible but the pronouncements of the Magisterium and ex cathedra papal pronouncements.

Technically i have been excommunicated by the RCC because I do not accept their pronouncements.

Now this was abundantly clear to all of us who preceded Vatican II and of course i will (according to the RCC) be consigned to hell not only because I am of "the Separated Brethren" but a defector as well.

HankD

Technically i have been excommunicated for missing Mass on Sunday! Maybe even from eating a cheeseburger on a Friday!

That doesn't mean I'm cursed into Hellfire.

Also once catholic, always catholic. you can't get kicked out. If you go back they are not going to baptize you again.

This is why we have a catechism. If you can point out the actual rule and teaching you believe is wrong from there, GREAT.

95% of the stuff I debate is pure misrepresentation.

I would be shocked if I had to debate something we actually believe.

In short, Hank, you got it wrong......again.

We have a catechism, its like a book that explains the beliefs and where the beliefs are drawn from scripture,etc.

All you have to do is say I don't believe this here and slap down a number.



You wana talk about DOUBLESPEAK/DOUBLETHINK?

I mean if I go to a Baptist Church all Baptist are CALVINIST RIGHT?
 

HankD

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Really, have we ever been one with Him? Can we be... it requires a purity way beyond human capability
It doesn't depend on us and our purity but God's love.

John 17

21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

HankD
 

HankD

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You wana talk about DOUBLESPEAK/DOUBLETHINK?

I mean if I go to a Baptist Church all Baptist are CALVINIST RIGHT?

That is different than the clash of doctrines between transubstantiation and "the bloodless sacrifice of the mass" which comes down from the Vatican and must be believed upon penalty of excommunication.

There are only a few sins worthy of excommunication and missing mass is not one of them.

Abortion, heresy, apostasy and others are cause for automatic excommunication.

In the 1983 Code of Canon Law (CIC) eight other sins carry the penalty of automatic excommunication: apostasy, heresy, schism (CIC 1364:1), violating the sacred species (CIC 1367), physically attacking the pope (CIC 1370:1), sacramentally absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin (CIC 1378:1), consecrating a bishop without authorization (CIC 1382), and directly violating the seal of confession (1388:1).

Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith. Heresy is the obstinate doubt or denial, after baptism, of a defined Catholic doctrine. Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or the refusal to be in communion with members of the Church who are in communion with him (CIC 751).

Apart from abortion, are there other sins that incur automatic excommunication? | Catholic Answers.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


HankD
 

Adonia

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Sounds like a plan! Tell me if you would, does this loyalty to the RCC have anything to do with family ties? Of course you don’t have to answer that if you don’t want to. I only ask because most of my family are Catholic and they look on in horror at my leaving...those are ties that sometimes bind.

Nothing to do with any family ties, just a belief that they were there at the beginning and are still here now. For a period of about 10 years of my adult life I didn't attend any religious services anywhere. When I sought forgiveness for my sins in the name of Jesus Christ, I started attending various Christian denominations and at every one I attended I kept comparing them to the Catholic Mass. In the end I realized that all I was getting at those places was just a different interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, and they differed from Pastor to Pastor.

Then there is the type of worship. I like the liturgical way of worship with it's set form, and also to me the teaching of the sacraments as a way to help one live a holy life make sense. The biggest thing though is the Mass, the re-presentation of that day on Calvary, and the Holy Eucharist, living out and doing what the Scriptures say we ought to do as we worship. It was a long way back, but I am glad that I am here.
 
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Adonia

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So you do not believe in the RCC's declarations? It's a crap shoot and we will just let God decide. Well that's fine, but then do not go about declaring the RCC is any final authority on Christian doctrines, for you do not really believe it then.

Of course I believe in the Universal Church's declarations and teachings. Much of the things you are saying is from the past and things have changed. You folks are our separated brethren and God will have mercy on you for your rejection of the orthodox Christian doctrines because you still are believers in Jesus Christ.

For someone who disdains the Catholic Church so much and what we believe, you certainly seem concerned about us a whole lot. Why so? If you are secure in your Christian faith tradition that should be enough, no? What we think and profess, and what the Church teaches should really not bother you one bit. I think maybe in the back of your head something is telling you we might just be on to something.
 

Adonia

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And I've met many Baptists who think Catholics will split hell wide open when they die.
[/QUOTE]

So very true! But I would never say such things about any Christian believer as the mercy of God Almighty is so great it is sometimes hard to comprehend. With our limited minds we can only take in so much and it is for Him to judge, not us.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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Nothing to do with any family ties, just a belief that they were there at the beginning and are still here now. For a period of about 10 years of my adult life I didn't attend any religious services anywhere. When I sought forgiveness for my sins in the name of Jesus Christ, I started attending various Christian denominations and at every one I attended I kept comparing them to the Catholic Mass. In the end I realized that all I was getting at those places was just a different interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, and they differed from Pastor to Pastor.

Then there is the type of worship. I like worshipping in a liturgical way with it's set form, and also to me the sacraments as a way to help one live a holy life make sense. The biggest thing though is the Mass, the re-presentation of that day on Calvary, and the Holy Eucharist, living out and doing what the Scriptures say we ought to do as we worship. It was a long way back, but I am glad that I am here.

My experience is a little more complicated.....my fathers people were of of a few denominations but they mostly gravitated to Calvinistic Welsh Methodists (not Arminian) & my mothers side are very Italian Roman Catholics. How these two met up is a long story but bottom line is they decided to raise us kids up as Catholics. In the old days, that created quite a ruckus. Today I wish they had not done that, I would have preferred selecting my own church.

After reading much scripture, much writings by men throughout the ages, I am most struck with a kinsman of mine named David Lloyd-Jones who grappled with "denominational-ism .... in his own words, "If a man comes to me and asks 'But what do they teach in there?' I would reply, Go in and listen. ' Why should we put up a notice that is going to exclude people? Let it be known that the gospel is going to be preached here. That is what a church is for. Let them go in, let them listen, they will soon find out what is being preached and then they can decide for themselves whether they are going there again or whether they are not.

Sounds like a plan to me!
 

Adonia

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My experience is a little more complicated.....my fathers people were of of a few denominations but they mostly gravitated to Calvinistic Welsh Methodists (not Arminian) & my mothers side are very Italian Roman Catholics. How these two met up is a long story but bottom line is they decided to raise us kids up as Catholics. In the old days, that created quite a ruckus. Today I wish they had not done that, I would have preferred selecting my own church.

After reading much scripture, much writings by men throughout the ages, I am most struck with a kinsman of mine named David Lloyd-Jones who grappled with "denominational-ism .... in his own words, "If a man comes to me and asks 'But what do they teach in there?' I would reply, Go in and listen. ' Why should we put up a notice that is going to exclude people? Let it be known that the gospel is going to be preached here. That is what a church is for. Let them go in, let them listen, they will soon find out what is being preached and then they can decide for themselves whether they are going there again or whether they are not.

Sounds like a plan to me!

And where do you worship now?
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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That is different than the clash of doctrines between transubstantiation and "the bloodless sacrifice of the mass" which comes down from the Vatican and must be believed upon penalty of excommunication.

There are only a few sins worthy of excommunication and missing mass is not one of them.


HankD

Is intentionally missing Mass a Mortal or Venial sin?
 

HankD

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Is intentionally missing Mass a Mortal or Venial sin?
In my day it was a mortal sin and apparently still is- maybe?.

Here is another example of a verbal salad with the meaning of - not always - unless there is serious reason then it is "a grave sin".


The Second Vatican Council has been blamed for (or sometimes credited with) making a variety of changes it never discussed. One of the things Vatican II did not do was to change church teaching on the obligation to attend Sunday Mass.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that teaching clearly in No. 2181: “The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants). Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.”

The answer goes on to further explain the "gravity of matter" in terms of intent in the reason for missing mass.

Gravity of matter, of course, is just one of the three necessary conditions for a mortal sin — the others being complete consent of the will and full knowledge of the sinful character of the act or omission. Certain circumstances can excuse one from attendance at Mass on a particular Sunday.

More apologetic follows ...

Is missing Mass a mortal sin?


HankD
 

church mouse guy

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I don't pay any attention to Rome and I have some good friends who are Roman Catholic. It seems to me that they have left Trent on the books for a reason. They claim to have the keys to heaven and they have said as recently as Pope Benedict that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church. A friend from South America told me that only Roman Catholics go to heaven but that doctrine is apparently not taught in the USA. So I think by anathema they mean excommunication but the result of the excommunication means that the person will go to hell. I consider Roman Catholicism as Christian but I also consider Roman Catholicism as incapable of reform. Afterall, before Protestants left 500 years ago, Eastern Orthodox left in 1054--so that is two major splits of long standing nature. Finally, in Dominus Iesus about 2000, they really said that third-way Protestants really weren't churches at all.

"On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense...."

Dominus Iesus
 

Adonia

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They claim to have the keys to heaven

This is not something that was claimed in 2002, 1952, 1932, 1432, 1032, 852, or even 432. This claim goes back to the very beginning right after the Apostles and the beginnings of the newly emerging Christian Church and comes directly from the singling out of the Apostle Peter by Christ and given ecclesiastical authority by Him.

It is thus written in Matthew: "Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”…

Such a concept was accepted by the whole of Christendom. One Universal (Catholic) Christian Church - there was no other, with a leadership of Bishops with authority from God Incarnate which had been passed onto them.

Tertullian, considered on of the Early Church Fathers wrote in the 3rd century in his work "The Prescription Against the Heretics" the following: "For this is the way the apostolic Churches transmit their lists: like the Church of the Symrnaeans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John; like the Church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter. In just this same way the other Churches display those whom they have as sprouts from the apostolic seed, having been established in the episcopate by the Apostles."

And in 251 St. Cyprian of Carthage wrote : "And again He says to him [Peter] after His resurrection: 'Feed my sheep' (John 21:17). On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all our shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that his is in the Church?"

There were no Baptists, no Episcopalians, no Mormons, no SDA, no Methodists, etc. Just one Universal (Catholic) Christian Church that over 95% (or more) of all Christians on the planet belonged to and which today's Roman Catholic Church is the direct descendant of.
 
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utilyan

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I don't pay any attention to Rome and I have some good friends who are Roman Catholic. It seems to me that they have left Trent on the books for a reason. They claim to have the keys to heaven and they have said as recently as Pope Benedict that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church. A friend from South America told me that only Roman Catholics go to heaven but that doctrine is apparently not taught in the USA. So I think by anathema they mean excommunication but the result of the excommunication means that the person will go to hell. I consider Roman Catholicism as Christian but I also consider Roman Catholicism as incapable of reform. Afterall, before Protestants left 500 years ago, Eastern Orthodox left in 1054--so that is two major splits of long standing nature. Finally, in Dominus Iesus about 2000, they really said that third-way Protestants really weren't churches at all.

"On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense...."

Dominus Iesus


GOD IS A CATHOLIC. (most other religions ain't too sure)

We will boldly tell you God is Catholic.

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, Surprise we believe Heaven is Catholic, God is Catholic, Jesus is Catholic. If they weren't Catholic we wouldn't be Catholic.

We are the one true church and surprise everyone else cause we act like it.


This however does not mean we have the same xenophobic, fascist, exclusivity of only Catholics go to heaven. We didn't plan on multiple religions.....there was just nothing......then a church.

But in heaven, everyone there is 100% Catholic.


After you die......100% everyone is going to be Catholic. Lets say you are muslim....ok you pass away..ala akbar....ok you meet Jesus....he's obviously catholic, seeing the truth what can you do? your gonna end up catholic.



Common now people....... One thread you guys say we are too easy on other religions and athiest, because we protect other religions and atheists.

And then you turn around and say well we only think we are selves go to heaven and everyone else gets hell.

Please make up your minds......
 

HankD

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GOD IS A CATHOLIC. (most other religions ain't too sure)

We will boldly tell you God is Catholic.

There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, Surprise we believe Heaven is Catholic, God is Catholic, Jesus is Catholic. If they weren't Catholic we wouldn't be Catholic.

We are the one true church and surprise everyone else cause we act like it.

This however does not mean we have the same xenophobic, fascist, exclusivity of only Catholics go to heaven. We didn't plan on multiple religions.....there was just nothing......then a church.

But in heaven, everyone there is 100% Catholic.

After you die......100% everyone is going to be Catholic. Lets say you are muslim....ok you pass away..ala akbar....ok you meet Jesus....he's obviously catholic, seeing the truth what can you do? your gonna end up catholic.

Common now people....... One thread you guys say we are too easy on other religions and athiest, because we protect other religions and atheists.

And then you turn around and say well we only think we are selves go to heaven and everyone else gets hell.

Please make up your minds......
By their fruits you shall know them:

Catholic Church massacres and mass murders:

The Crusades
The Roman and Spanish Inquisitions
The Peasants' War, 1524-25,
Protestant-Catholic Wars of Religion
French Wars of Religion 1562 to 1598.
Massacre of Vassy 1562.
St. Bartholomew's Day massacre 1572.
The Thirty Years War 1618 to 1648.
Ulster massacres 1641
The massacre of the Waldensians in the Luberon. In the 14th and 15th centuries

Killings for Christianity
 

steaver

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Ok so one thread you accuse that CATHOLICS are too loose allowing the salvation of Muslims, Athiest, Jews, And now you are saying we are exclusive to salvation.

MAKE up your mind.

Not my mind my friend. Tis your mind that wants to be a Catholic but does not want to follow their declarations. Tis you who says no faith is needed, yet you say you are a Catholic and the RCC says it most certainly is needed. Plus works of course...
 

utilyan

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For folks who swear there ain't no Original sin which one of those you need me to apologize for?
 

HankD

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For folks who swear there ain't no Original sin which one of those you need me to apologize for?
All of them.

Actually the Pope must and repent of the shedding of innocent blood.

And yes there is Original Sin:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


HankD
 

utilyan

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Not my mind my friend. Tis your mind that wants to be a Catholic but does not want to follow their declarations. Tis you who says no faith is needed, yet you say you are a Catholic and the RCC says it most certainly is needed. Plus works of course...

I never said no faith is needed. How come you have to Lie so much?


I don't have to misrepresent anything about you to point something being wrong. I can stop until I have your confirmation and acknowledgement to what you believe and still squash your theology on the spot.

But you require to make up Lies to find fault with catholic faith, that is pathetic.
 
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