And the Greatest of these......

[JonC]

God’s greatest gift to humanity is God’s love, God giving of Himself, sending His only begotten Son. I know that this is a controversial subject and some on the Baptist Board find that a false belief. But I want to post a few passages and ask that those who object so strongly to the absolute majesty of God above all things take a bit of time and meditate on these truths. These are only a few passages out of many affirming the supremacy of God over all that He has done and all that He has given humanity.


Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. 1 John 4:7-12

I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." John 3:11-21

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:1-13

 

[alexander284]

Which Bible translation is this, by the way?

 

[JonC]

Which Bible translation is this, by the way?

NIV I think.

 

[Reynolds]

God’s greatest gift to humanity is God’s love, God giving of Himself, sending His only begotten Son. I know that this is a controversial subject and some on the Baptist Board find that a false belief. But I want to post a few passages and ask that those who object so strongly to the absolute majesty of God above all things take a bit of time and meditate on these truths. These are only a few passages out of many affirming the supremacy of God over all that He has done and all that He has given humanity.


Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. 1 John 4:7-12

I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." John 3:11-21

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:1-13

I agree. It is quite obvious in scripture. It becomes cloudy with some, not all, in the Reformed camp. They fix their minds entirely on God saving sinners for His Glory. In that tunnel minded fixation on a truth, they lose sight of the loving relationship God has for His children. They miss the forest because they are staring singularly at the biggest tree.

 

[Particular]

JonC asserted: "God’s greatest gift to humanity is God’s love, God giving of Himself, sending His only begotten Son."

God's love, as the passages JonC provided show us, does not rejoice in evil. Therefore, if God chose not to redeem one person throughout eternity, but instead judged their evil rebellion in righteousness, God would be fully loving. God's greatest gift to humanity, in that loving scenario, would be eternal damnation of all humanity. Why? Because God is love.

But, God's love is expanded upon his chosen ones whom he grants the ability to believe. To his chosen, he graciously gives the ability to believe that the Son of God made perfect atonement upon the cross and therefore redeemed his chosen ones by his full payment for their sins.

To his elect, God's love is revealed, not in just judgment, but in gracious pardon because his elect believe.

The verses JonC provided show this truth and to that end I thank JonC for providing the scriptural backing.

 

[JonC]

JonC asserted: "God’s greatest gift to humanity is God’s love, God giving of Himself, sending His only begotten Son."

God's love, as the passages JonC provided show us, does not rejoice in evil. Therefore, if God chose not to redeem one person throughout eternity, but instead judged their evil rebellion in righteousness, God would be fully loving. God's greatest gift to humanity, in that loving scenario, would be eternal damnation of all humanity. Why? Because God is love.

But, God's love is expanded upon his chosen ones whom he grants the ability to believe. To his chosen, he graciously gives the ability to believe that the Son of God made perfect atonement upon the cross and therefore redeemed his chosen ones by his full payment for their sins.

To his elect, God's love is revealed, not in just judgment, but in gracious pardon because his elect believe.

The verses JonC provided show this truth and to that end I thank JonC for providing the scriptural backing.

Yes, I honestly believe with all that is in me that there is no greater gift given to humanity than God Himself.

Do you believe that there is something or someone greater than God given to mankind?

On a previous thread you seemed to indicate Scripture a greater gift than God giving of Himself, but the thread closed before you chose to answer.

 

[Particular]

Yes, I honestly believe with all that is in me that there is no greater gift given to humanity than God Himself.

Do you believe that there is something or someone greater than God given to mankind?

On a previous thread you seemed to indicate Scripture a greater gift than God giving of Himself, but the thread closed before you chose to answer.

You just changed your assertion with your present statement.

God created humans and all that is in existence. Is God a gift? If so, is there specific scripture that declares God as a gift to humans?

How would we know God was a gift to humans without God telling us?

Is God the gift or is His choice to communicate with us the gift?

 

[JonC]

You just changed your assertion with your present statement.

God created humans and all that is in existence. Is God a gift? If so, is there specific scripture that declares God as a gift to humans?

How would we know God was a gift to humans without God telling us?

Is God the gift or is His choice to communicate with us the gift?

My assertion is that God Himself is the greatest gift because Scripture tells us that God has given of Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.

Why would our knowledge or lack of knowledge about a gift devalue the gift itself?

 

[AustinC]

My assertion is that God Himself is the greatest gift because Scripture tells us that God has given of Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.

Why would our knowledge or lack of knowledge about a gift devalue the gift itself?

What tells us?
Scripture you say?
God died for his elect. This truly is a gift to the elect, that God would atone for our sins. It is an act of grace, through God given faith, that we might believe. How then can we believe if no one tells us? So, hearing comes from...the Word of God.

JonC, you are nit picking.

 

[JonC]

What tells us?
Scripture you say?
God died for his elect. This truly is a gift to the elect, that God would atone for our sins. It is an act of grace, through God given faith, that we might believe. How then can we believe if no one tells us? So, hearing comes from...the Word of God.

JonC, you are nit picking.

I believe all Creation testifies to the majesty and glory of God. If it is nit picking then you would not be arguing against my belief that God Himself is the greatest gift to mankind.

If a man does not know about Scripture then is Scripture diminished? No. We all have some I are knowledge of God, but if that is all is God diminished? No.

God giving of Himself is the greater gift to man because there is no thing or person greater than God.

 

[JonC]

@AustinC ,

Just for clarity let me ask this (just so that I understand exactly what you are saying):

Do you believe that Scripture is a greater gift to mankind than the is God sending His Son?

I am not talking about what has benefited specific men (we are not elevating man in this discussion).

What I mean is look at three of the gifts God has given mankind:

1. God loved us by sending His Son.
2. God gave us Scripture.
3. God gave us the Spirit Who uncovers what has been revealed to us in Scripture.

Of these three, do you believe that Scripture is truly greater than God Himself?

 

[AustinC]

@AustinC ,

Just for clarity let me ask this (just so that I understand exactly what you are saying):

Do you believe that Scripture is a greater gift to mankind than the is God sending His Son?

I am not talking about what has benefited specific men (we are not elevating man in this discussion).

What I mean is look at three of the gifts God has given mankind:

1. God loved us by sending His Son.
2. God gave us Scripture.
3. God gave us the Spirit Who uncovers what has been revealed to us in Scripture.

Of these three, do you believe that Scripture is truly greater than God Himself?

You have framed the argument poorly.
1) God doesn't love the entire world. God the Son came to redeem God's adopted children who were chosen before the foundation of the world. God, in love, deals justly with rebellious sinners. God, in love, chose graciously to redeem and make alive with Christ those whom God predestined to adoption.
2) God chose to reveal Himself to His adopted children through Creation and through His written scripture. He provided a universal message so that those who remain in rebellion have no excuse.
3) God the Holy Spirit counsels God's adopted children in the process of sanctification primarily through the instruction of God's word.
All these three, God has used to make Himself known to His adopted children. There is no hierarchical order as they all are instruments in God's capable hands.

God is not a gift to us. We cannot possess God as though he were an object. Therefore your approach to create a "greater than" gift is false. God is not a gift to us.
God is our Father and we are His adopted children. God's gifts are those objects He bestows upon us as His children.
Therefore, we should explore what gifts God tells us He has given us. The question we can ask is: Of the gifts God gives His children, what is their order of importance?
My answer to that question is that the greatest gift is love.

So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
~ 1 Corinthians 13:13

 

[JonC]

You have framed the argument poorly.
1) God doesn't love the entire world. God the Son came to redeem God's adopted children who were chosen before the foundation of the world. God, in love, deals justly with rebellious sinners. God, in love, chose graciously to redeem and make alive with Christ those whom God predestined to adoption.
2) God chose to reveal Himself to His adopted children through Creation and through His written scripture. He provided a universal message so that those who remain in rebellion have no excuse.
3) God the Holy Spirit counsels God's adopted children in the process of sanctification primarily through the instruction of God's word.
All these three, God has used to make Himself known to His adopted children. There is no hierarchical order as they all are instruments in God's capable hands.

God is not a gift to us. We cannot possess God as though he were an object. Therefore your approach to create a "greater than" gift is false. God is not a gift to us.
God is our Father and we are His adopted children. God's gifts are those objects He bestows upon us as His children.
Therefore, we should explore what gifts God tells us He has given us. The question we can ask is: Of the gifts God gives His children, what is their order of importance?
My answer to that question is that the greatest gift is love.

So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest
~ 1 Corinthians 13:13

I disagree. God is love. God sent His Son that whoever believes might be saved.

The framing of the question was the greatest gift God gave to humanity. That is God Himself.

I understand your objection based on how you interpret the "world" - but even using that interpretation you would have to admit that the gospel itself is foolishness to the world.

I will stick with God sending His Son as the greatest gift. My view of God will not allow me to declare any gift greater than Him loving us by giving to us His own Son. I do not have to reason that out or weigh that with what benefits man the most. God is utmost in everything.

We can disagree as friends.

 

[Iconoclast]

You have framed the argument poorly.
1) God doesn't love the entire world. God the Son came to redeem God's adopted children who were chosen before the foundation of the world. God, in love, deals justly with rebellious sinners. God, in love, chose graciously to redeem and make alive with Christ those whom God predestined to adoption.
2) God chose to reveal Himself to His adopted children through Creation and through His written scripture. He provided a universal message so that those who remain in rebellion have no excuse.
3) God the Holy Spirit counsels God's adopted children in the process of sanctification primarily through the instruction of God's word.
All these three, God has used to make Himself known to His adopted children. There is no hierarchical order as they all are instruments in God's capable hands.

God is not a gift to us. We cannot possess God as though he were an object. Therefore your approach to create a "greater than" gift is false. God is not a gift to us.
God is our Father and we are His adopted children. God's gifts are those objects He bestows upon us as His children.
Therefore, we should explore what gifts God tells us He has given us. The question we can ask is: Of the gifts God gives His children, what is their order of importance?
My answer to that question is that the greatest gift is love.

So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
~ 1 Corinthians 13:13

you are seeing when faulty logic and philosophy go down the wrong road,

 

[JonC]

you are seeing when faulty logic and philosophy go down the wrong road,

I certainly am seeing vain philosophy going down the wrong road.

It is really simple.

All it takes to know the greatest gift is love, and the greatest love is a man laying down His life for His friends, that God is love and His act of love was sending his Son is to read one's Bible.

Scripture itself does not claim superiority to Christ (and Scripture teaches God' s gift of love to the world is His own Son) .

Why are you do adament to insist Scripture a greater gift to humanity than Christ?

If all the hills to die upon, this is an odd decision.

 

[Particular]

The framing of the question was the greatest gift God gave to humanity. That is God Himself.

I think this was addressed by AustinC earlier, but your comment above states God gave the gift of himself to humanity. Where do we find God telling us that He is a gift to humanity?
Austin laid out the gifts God tells us He gave us.
Are you trying to make a philosophical connection that Paul's statement, that the greatest between faith, hope and love is love, means that since God is love, therefore God is the gift that is greatest?
Personally, I think that's a big stretch on your part, if that is the connection you are attempting to make.
Second, how is God's sure righteous justice, which condemns rebels, a gift to those humans under his judgment?
You ask Iconoclast if this is a hill worth dying on. I ask you the same thing. Is this the hill upon which you choose to fight to the death?

 

[JonC]

I think this was addressed by AustinC earlier, but your comment above states God gave the gift of himself to humanity. Where do we find God telling us that He is a gift to humanity?
Austin laid out the gifts God tells us He gave us.
Are you trying to make a philosophical connection that Paul's statement, that the greatest between faith, hope and love is love, means that since God is love, therefore God is the gift that is greatest?
Personally, I think that's a big stretch on your part, if that is the connection you are attempting to make.
Second, how is God's sure righteous justice, which condemns rebels, a gift to those humans under his judgment?
You ask Iconoclast if this is a hill worth dying on. I ask you the same thing. Is this the hill upon which you choose to fight to the death?

I also laid out a list of God's gifts (love, God sent His Son....). I am making no philosophical connections at all. I am stating that if the giftings SCRIPTURE says God gave us I believe God giving of Himself the greatest. I understand you disagree, and that is fine. You can prioritize what God has given however you want, but for me I choose to believe Scripture's claim that the greatest is love, God is love, God loved us by sending His Son, and there is no greater live than laying down ones life, and Christ laid down His life for us.

Yes. The love of God is a hill upon which I would die.

God loved the world by sending His Son that whosoever (who ever in the world) believes will have life.

I believe the world cannot understand Scripture in terms of its spiritual truths. Even the gospel itself is foolishness to those who are perishing.

1. Where,@Particular do you find that God gave Scripture to humanity?

2. Do you believe that humanity understands Scripture without the work of the Spirit?

3. Do you believe that to the world the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.... Or.... Do you believe that to the world the gospel is foolishness but to these who are being saved it is the power of God unto salvation?

 

[JonC]

@AustinC ,

I ask you the same question.

@Iconoclast is adament that God gave Scripture to humanity. Do you agree with him?

Is Scripture for the world or for God's people?

Look not at Scripture for a moment but at the gospel contained in Scripture. Is the gospel for humanity or is it foolishness to the world but the power of God unto salvation for those being saved?

Do you believe that the greatest gift is love, that God is Love, that God loved by giving His Son?

If do, how can God Himself be less great a gift than Scripture?

Thank you for considering my questions.

I believe that God giving of Himself is the greatest gift. God is love. God gave us Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. God's act of loving the world is the greatest gift to man, and it is a hill I would choose to fight upon because it is so central to Christian faith.

 

[AustinC]

@AustinC ,

I ask you the same question.

@Iconoclast is adament that God gave Scripture to humanity. Do you agree with him?

Is Scripture for the world or for God's people?

Look not at Scripture for a moment but at the gospel contained in Scripture. Is the gospel for humanity or is it foolishness to the world but the power of God unto salvation for those being saved?

Do you believe that the greatest gift is love, that God is Love, that God loved by giving His Son?

If do, how can God Himself be less great a gift than Scripture?

Thank you for considering my questions.

I believe that God giving of Himself is the greatest gift. God is love. God gave us Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. God's act of loving the world is the greatest gift to man, and it is a hill I would choose to fight upon because it is so central to Christian faith.

Scripture is given to the entire world. It is beneficial to God's children as the Holy Spirit gives counsel. It is often misused and twisted by those enslaved to Satan.

1 Timothy 3:16-17 tells us...

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

God doesn't give Himself to the unredeemed. To them He casts out unto eternal damnation.

God is the I Am. He is not a gift (object) given to men that they might possess Him.
The elect are objects upon which he chooses to bestow his gift of grace and Redeem from their unrighteousness. He places these redeemed sinners into Christ Jesus, our Redeemer.
Nowhere that I know of in scripture is God called a gift to humanity. JonC, you are making a purely philosophical argument.

By virtue of His essence, God is greater than all things. But, the question is, what is the greatest gift, not who is the greatest being. This is why I think your argument is incorrect. You are attempting to move the goalpost.

 

[InTheLight]

By virtue of His essence, God is greater than all things. But, the question is, what is the greatest gift, not who is the greatest being. This is why I think your argument is incorrect. You are attempting to move the goalpost.

Here's the OP:

God’s greatest gift to humanity is God’s love, God giving of Himself, sending His only begotten Son

.

No moving of the goalposts being done here, except by you!