Another Abortion Poll

[webdog]

Then get off your chairs and get out there helping them. I don't see the help. I do see all the self-righteous judgements.

If you don't know about the women who have died trying to give birth, you haven't spent much time in hospitals Thankfully a lot of these problems have been worked out with modern medicine and that includes the removal of a mass from blocked tubes.

Cheers,

Jim

Most people want an absolute ban on abortion.then that would iclude d&c's, birth control pills, condoms and every other device.

I'm sure the language would include to save the life of the mother. When you have two people, and one is going to die, it is not abortion to save the mother. That's just absurd. The couple are not going into the operation looking to end a pregnancy.

 

[LeBuick]

Who would say at birth!

Let me guess...a "christian" liberal

The Bible....


It says Man becomes a living soul once he breath's into him the breath of life.

 

[annsni]

Then get off your chairs and get out there helping them. I don't see the help. I do see all the self-righteous judgements.

You haven't seen self-righteous judgments from me. I've got a new mom's group with 2 single moms along with the other married moms. I've helped other unwed mothers with baby supplies, lactation consulting, babysitting, etc. No judgments from me - but just help.

If you don't know about the women who have died trying to give birth, you haven't spent much time in hospitals Thankfully a lot of these problems have been worked out with modern medicine and that includes the removal of a mass from blocked tubes.

Cheers,

Jim

Oh - I know about women who die giving birth - but the vast majority are not from the baby's birth defects but from the birth itself. A child having down's syndrome will not kill a mother during birth - but 80% of the children who are diagnosed as down's syndrome in utero will be murdered. That's not for anything other than not wanting a child with special needs.

Most people want an absolute ban on abortion.then that would iclude d&c's, birth control pills, condoms and every other device.

Condoms do not cause abortions and I don't see anyone who is anti-abortion arguing to ban condoms or other devices that do not cause abortions (female condom, cervical cap, diaphram). As I've stated, D&Cs are mostly used for gynecological issues and would not be included in a ban on abortions. Birth control pills are not only used for birth control but for gynecological issues (the first 3 years I was on them I was not even sexually active but took them for amenorrea). However, many women do not understand that birth control pills CAN cause abortions by making the uterine lining inhospitable to a fertilized egg. I would recommend using another form of birth control along with the pill if one wishes to avoid possibly aborting a baby unnecessarily.

As for the ectopic pregnancy, it's a matter of saving a life. The baby will die. Period. The baby will die. The mother will most likely die also. So we try to save the mother. That is not an abortion.

 

[webdog]

The Bible....


It says Man becomes a living soul once he breath's into him the breath of life.

...and I was right. Gotta love when figurative language is taken literal.

 

[Spinach]

I'm mostly with Jim here. I'm opposed to elective abortions. I'm not opposed to life-saving operations. I used to be, but I'm not now.

However, as the Mother of a special needs child, I couldn't imagine someone aborting my precious little one because she had a "defect".

Annsni, I find that not many people I talk to know about the effects of birth control pills, shots, iud, and such not allowing a fertilized egg to implant. If one believes that life begins at conception, I can't imagine that one using these forms of birth control. However, a vast majority of the people I know (Christians included) believe that it's at implantation and are not opposed to those forms of birth control.

 

[LeBuick]

...and I was right. Gotta love when figurative language is taken literal.

You saying God didn't literally make Adam? Just figuratively?

Because one believes a child is born into life doesn't make Abortion any more right. I just differ on when I believe life begins and I feel my view is supported by scripture. Breath of Life is a significant distinction in scripture. I believe the Bible is clear life begins with first breath (gaining your soul) and ends with last breath (giving up the ghost). You can see both distinctions in this verse.

Ge 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

 

[annsni]

Annsni, I find that not many people I talk to know about the effects of birth control pills, shots, iud, and such not allowing a fertilized egg to implant. If one believes that life begins at conception, I can't imagine that one using these forms of birth control. However, a vast majority of the people I know (Christians included) believe that it's at implantation and are not opposed to those forms of birth control.

I know and it's sad. I didn't know about the true effects of birth control pills when I first was on them and did end up using them early in our marriage. The only thing that I feel comforted by is the fact that I do not ovulate on my own so I do not believe that I ovulated any time during my use of the pill. Even on fertility drugs, there were times I didn't ovulate. But once I found out about that we added in a barrier method until the time that we were ready for children. Since then, I've only been on the pill for gynecological reasons and we've always used additional birth control methods to prevent conception. Yeah - I've got a messed up body in that arena. :BangHead:

 

[rbell]

You saying God didn't literally make Adam? Just figuratively?

Because one believes a child is born into life doesn't make Abortion any more right. I just differ on when I believe life begins and I feel my view is supported by scripture. Breath of Life is a significant distinction in scripture. I believe the Bible is clear life begins with first breath (gaining your soul) and ends with last breath (giving up the ghost). You can see both distinctions in this verse.

Ge 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Adam's creation is different than babies'. God is the Author of both, but our kids are not formed as Adam was.

And your view, carried to its conclusion, would allow for abortion as long as the baby hasn't breathed yet. Bad idea.

I know you don't hold that view...but when you fiddle around with "when life begins," you lose your moral high ground to oppose abortion. You give up your best and strongest arguments in the debate.

Like I said...I don't doubt you oppose it; but you have thrown out one of the most compelling arguments.

 

[Spinach]

Annsni, when young women (usually my sister) come to me and ask such questions as what you and I have been discussing on this thread, I make them aware of all possibilities and leave the rest to conscience. I also encourage them to take their folic acid. I know from experience what the lack of it can cause.

 

[annsni]

Annsni, when young women (usually my sister) come to me and ask such questions as what you and I have been discussing on this thread, I make them aware of all possibilities and leave the rest to conscience. I also encourage them to take their folic acid. I know from experience what the lack of it can cause.

((HUGS))

We have a huge ministry to the disabled at our church and I know just how special special needs people can be.

 

[LeBuick]

And your view, carried to its conclusion, would allow for abortion as long as the baby hasn't breathed yet. Bad idea.

I know you don't hold that view...but when you fiddle around with "when life begins," you lose your moral high ground to oppose abortion. You give up your best and strongest arguments in the debate.

Like I said...I don't doubt you oppose it; but you have thrown out one of the most compelling arguments.

I don't study or interpret God's Word in a manner that gives me a stronger or more compelling argument against anything. I study it as Truth so that I may know and walk closer with my God. The offensive weapon of the Gospel needs no help from Man to accomplish its work. It is sharper and more powerful than any two edged sword capable of dividing soul from spirit and our thoughts from the intent of our hearts. It stands ready to not only judge but to defend.

The Pharisees likewise used a strict, verbatim yielding of scripture to make a more compelling case against Christ, His Person and His Mission. Jesus taught us through these attacks that there will be times when things are necessary, and when necessary, they are right. They asked why do your disciples pick corn on the sabbath, Jesus said because it's necessary. Why did David eat the shewbread, why did you heal this blind man or why does this man carry his bed on the sabbath, Jesus responded because it's necessary. And when necessary, it's right.

Necessity is not only the mother of invention, it is also a caveat to the law and reason we should not use it to offer secular man a more compelling argument or to look down on others from our moral high ground. We ought not make one harden their hearts against God that our opposition to a wrong might be endorsed by Him. God is in control, experienced and is very able to make His case without us.

Abortion doesn't have to be proved as murder to be wrong, a baby is a gift, a blessing from the Almighty who entrusted two people the ultimate and most precious, loving responsibility of caring, nurturing and molding raw life into a morally good, believing contributor to society. If they fail the first test, then they certainly were not ready for the challenges, responsibility and obligations that lay ahead.

I have looked in the eyes, wiped the tears and buried the corps of battered and neglected children and there are times I have wondered if it would not have been better had they of not been born. Perhaps that's why I have a softened view of being pro-life.

I am pro-life, but I want others to be pro-life because deep inside they know it's morally right and not because some law says it's wrong. Having a law making abortion wrong would only increase the number of babies found in trash bags, dumpsters, battered and beaten or used as pawns between the mother and father or between the mother and a welfare system, later to spend the rest of their days in prison or killed because of gang affiliations. If that is the case, did we win? And if so, what did we win? Did we really win because we gave somebody an innocent life to be used as a punching bag or a door mat?

I can't explain the necessity of why God does what he does. I can't explain hurricane's, tsunamis or why some idiot would fly a plane into a building. However, every time I see a story of an abortion who lived or a person who survives an unsurvivable accident it confirms my belief that God is still in control and is the only One who can give or take life away. His experience goes back to the creation of the universe and he'll be doing a great job long after I'm gone.

 

[donnA]

self-righteous judgements.

calling murder murder is self righteous judgement? Thats odd.

 

[LeBuick]

calling murder murder is self righteous judgement? Thats odd.

Judge ye not...

1. There is no biblical proof life begins at conception so calling them a murderer is really opinion based on YOUR belief and not based on biblical facts. It is only a sin to transgress against God, not Donna's opinion.

2. We should be about the mission of bringing folks to Christ. You can't call a person a murderer then ask them to join the Church. That just isn't effective witnessing.

3. No matter their sin, as long as it isn't blasphemy it can be forgiven and the person can be restored. I think that's a more effective message.

4. Calling one a sinner as in the context of saying you are not IS self righteous. If you were to say you and I are sinners then it wouldn't be self righteous.

Remember that all we have sinned and come short of the Glory. To say you're not a sinner is to call God a liar.

 

[Revmitchell]

The Pharisees likewise used a strict, verbatim yielding of scripture to make a more compelling case against Christ, His Person and His Mission.

This is false. They in fact added to OT law.

 

[Revmitchell]

Judge ye not...

1. There is no biblical proof life begins at conception so calling them a murderer is really opinion based on YOUR belief and not based on biblical facts. It is only a sin to transgress against God, not Donna's opinion.

Should John the Baptist have been aborted just after he leaped in the womb?

2. We should be about the mission of bringing folks to Christ. You can't call a person a murderer then ask them to join the Church. That just isn't effective witnessing.

You insist on scripture for #1 but fail to use it to support anything thus far.

3. No matter their sin, as long as it isn't blasphemy it can be forgiven and the person can be restored. I think that's a more effective message.

The sinner must know what sin is however, we should also be taking a stand for the innocent unborn life.

4. Calling one a sinner as in the context of saying you are not IS self righteous. If you were to say you and I are sinners then it wouldn't be self righteous.

And who has done this?

Remember that all we have sinned and come short of the Glory. To say you're not a sinner is to call God a liar.

?

 

[LeBuick]

This is false. They in fact added to OT law.

Not in the examples I used speaking about the Sabbath.

 

[LeBuick]

Should John the Baptist have been aborted just after he leaped in the womb?

A baby kicking in the womb is not proof life begins at conception. This again all depends on your definition of living. I don't call that which is in the womb living any more than I consider a person totally dependent on life support systems as living.

The sinner must know what sin is however, we should also be taking a stand for the innocent unborn life.

There are many biblical principles we should be taking a stand for. Unborn life is only one. Pointing out one is a sinner should include the fact that we are all sinners and sin's can be forgiven.

And who has done this?

Donna... One must judge to conclude another is a murderer. Looking down or calling a person a murderer is to imply what, you have no sin? To feel you have no sin is self righteous. It is because we are sinners that we need the righteousness of Christ.

 

[donnA]

Judge ye not...

1. There is no biblical proof life begins at conception so calling them a murderer is really opinion based on YOUR belief and not based on biblical facts. It is only a sin to transgress against God, not Donna's opinion.

2. We should be about the mission of bringing folks to Christ. You can't call a person a murderer then ask them to join the Church. That just isn't effective witnessing.

3. No matter their sin, as long as it isn't blasphemy it can be forgiven and the person can be restored. I think that's a more effective message.

4. Calling one a sinner as in the context of saying you are not IS self righteous. If you were to say you and I are sinners then it wouldn't be self righteous.

Remember that all we have sinned and come short of the Glory. To say you're not a sinner is to call God a liar.

Apparently killing a baby in your opinion is not murder.
And I can only assume since we aren't to call sin sin in your OPINION, then we can't really witness to anyone in the first place, as they've done nothing wrong, no sin, or at least we can't say they or anyone has sinned, as thats a judgement agaisnt them. They now have nothing to repent of.
humm, yep, sounds pretty biblical doesn't it. In order to witness to anyone you must first judge they are a sinner.
NOT!
Sin is sin no matter how you try to sugar coat it, and we aren't to coddle murderers, refusing to say they've done wrong or sinned, this isn't biblical.
You of course have scripture telling us to coddle murderers and not recognize their sin, that killing a baby isn't sin.
Of course not.
I expect this kind of thing from you, who voted to support murder of live birth babies, to allow and support partial birth abortion. Nope, you have to sooth your conscious somehow, and saying they aren't human or aren't even alive must be how you do it. But thats your OPINION only, and not God's from scripture.

 

[donnA]

A baby kicking in the womb is not proof life begins at conception. This again all depends on your definition of living. I don't call that which is in the womb living any more than I consider a person totally dependent on life support systems as living.

That would be your defination, your opinion, with no scripture again I see.

Donna... One must judge to conclude another is a murderer. Looking down or calling a person a murderer is to imply what, you have no sin? To feel you have no sin is self righteous. It is because we are sinners that we need the righteousness of Christ.

it's called scripture, something apparently forgeign to you, since your OPINIONS are not scriptural.

 

[SBCPreacher]

Here's part of a message I have preached on the sanctity of life:


In researching for this message I found something very interesting. We need to remember that the New Testament as originally written in Greek, and they had had more than one word for our English word, “child.” The most common word, found over 98 times in the New Testament is the word “TEKNON.” This word talks about a child in relation to a parent. But, there is an interesting word for “child” that is found only 8 times in the New Testament that sheds a great deal of light on what the Bible teaches about the unborn. Its the Greek word “BREPHOS.” These are the verses where it is found:
**Acts 7:19 - This man dealt treacherously with our people, and oppressed our forefathers, making them expose their babies [BREPHOS], so that they might not live.
**Luke 18:15 - Then they also brought infants [BREPHOS] to Him that He might touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
**2 Timothy 3:15 - and that from childhood [BREPHOS] you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
**1 Peter 2:2 - as newborn babes [BREPHOS], desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,
**Luke 2:12 - And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe [BREPHOS] wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger.
**Luke 2:16 - And they came with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the Babe [BREPHOS] lying in a manger.

Now in these verses, the word “BREPHOS” describes a baby who has already been born. An infant child who is outside the womb. But there are two other verses that use this word:
**Luke 1:41 - And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe [BREPHOS] leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
**Luke 1:44 - For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe [BREPHOS] leaped in my womb for joy.

Notice that in these verses the same word used for a child already born is used for a child still in the womb. I believe this makes it clear that God considers the unborn child as much a human being, as much a person as the child outside the womb.