Another verse that blows ME out of the water

[npetreley]

Can you demonstrate from the teachings of Paul (the Pauline epistles) that ME doctrine is a viable doctrine?
In other words, does Paul teach ME? (simply put)
If he does, please show us where it is taught.

Oh, well NO WONDER you haven't gotten an answer. Paul didn't teach doctrine in parables. You can only sneak ME into scripture via symbols, inference, innuendo and parables.

 

[Amy.G]

Oh, well NO WONDER you haven't gotten an answer. Paul didn't teach doctrine in parables. You can only sneak ME into scripture via symbols, inference, innuendo and parables.

Duh. :tongue3:

 

[npetreley]

Duh. :tongue3:

Oh, and bogus use of etymology, too. I almost forgot that.

 

[Amy.G]

Oh, and bogus use of etymology, too. I almost forgot that.

They sure did seem to scatter!

It's really quiet in here.

 

[npetreley]

They sure did seem to scatter!

It's really quiet in here.

(sniffs underarms)

Do I "offend"? I took a shower today.

 

[James_Newman]

They sure did seem to scatter!

It's really quiet in here.

We just don't bother talking to people who ignore us. I think we have all expressed our willingness to discuss what Paul taught about the kingdom as soon as someone explained why Jesus wasn't good enough.

 

[DHK]

It might as well be closed due to lack of interest.

 

[TCGreek]

We just don't bother talking to people who ignore us. I think we have all expressed our willingness to discuss what Paul taught about the kingdom as soon as someone explained why Jesus wasn't good enough.

1. Jesus is enough to teach the true doctrine of the Kingdom.

2. But Jesus is not the issue here. Your doctrine of the Kingdom is the issue here, and since you depend so heavily on parabolic expressions, as have been said time and time again, Why not go to Paul, where his books are didactic and doctrinal.

3. It is that simple.

 

[James_Newman]

1. Jesus is enough to teach the true doctrine of the Kingdom.

2. But Jesus is not the issue here. Your doctrine of the Kingdom is the issue here, and since you depend so heavily on parabolic expressions, as have been said time and time again, Why not go to Paul, where his books are didactic and doctrinal.

3. It is that simple.

Well, I'll let you guys simmer over the weekend. I have about 40 minutes left at work and then I won't be back till monday morning. If you haven't had any luck, I'll start a thread on what didactic doctrinal Paul said about the kingdom.

 

[npetreley]

It might as well be closed due to lack of interest.

ME = POP. Petrified Of Paul.

(in a spooky voice...) He's coming to get you, barbara!

 

[Amy.G]

We just don't bother talking to people who ignore us. I think we have all expressed our willingness to discuss what Paul taught about the kingdom as soon as someone explained why Jesus wasn't good enough.

Who said Jesus isn't enough? We have been saying all along that Jesus IS enough.

In case you forgot, Jesus taught Paul.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Accountability Verses Demonstrated from Paul

Here's a starting point...

"Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." - Romans 2:6-11

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" - Romans 6:16

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." - Romans 8:1

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." - Romans 8:6

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." - Romans 8:13

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." - Romans 11:20-21

"So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." - Romans 14:12

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise." - 1 Corinthians 3:15-18

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." - 1 Corinthians 9:27

"But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." - 1 Corinthians 11:32

"Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences." - 2 Corinthians 5:9-11

"Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." - Galatians 5:21

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." - Galatians 6:7-8

"For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them." - Ephesians 5:5-7

"But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons." - Colossians 3:25

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" - 2 Timothy 2:12

"Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:" - 2 Timothy 4:14​

 

[Rufus_1611]

Who said Jesus isn't enough? We have been saying all along that Jesus IS enough.

In case you forgot, Jesus taught Paul.

I believe James is aware of this. I think he's questioning why the teachings of the student trumps the teaching of the master but it's all good as it's all inspired.

 

[DHK]

Here's a starting point...

"Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." - Romans 2:6-11​

The problem with this passage is that it is too often taken out of its context to come to a proper understanding. So let’s begin at looking near the beginning of the chapter. In fact from 1:18 to 3:20 Paul expounds on the universal need of the gospel, and this is just one very small section of that part. From 1:29-32 Paul lists a dark list of sins which characterize man in his alienation from God. Notice that these are not occasional sin; but that they are full of these sins. They have the knowledge that not only are these sins wrong, but they that do them are worthy of death. This condemnation is on the unsaved.

With that Paul proceeds to chapter two, and a different class of people; this for some has been difficult to identify. Much of this chapter is directed right to the Jew, and yet the Gentile is not completely ignored. It seems that he is speaking to those that are morally upright in their own eyes. They have been given God’s light (both Jews and Gentiles), but what have they done with it? We can note in this chapter that the sins of cultured people are the same as those of the heathen. God is not partial. Thus the straightforward condemnation, aimed particularly at the Jews:

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
--How can an ungodly or unsaved Jew judge another (Gentile) when he is committing the same sins? How ludicrous a thought! They should be ashamed for even thinking such a thought. But this is the self-righteous position of many unsaved—both Jew and Gentile.

Verse two—emphasizes that the judgment of God is according to truth.
Verse three—emphasizes that the judgment of God is inescapable.
Verse four—emphasizes that the judgment of God is sometimes delayed.
Verse five—emphasizes that the judgment of God can be accumulated, gradually.

From verses 6 to 11 Paul reminds us that the judgment of God will be according to works, or more accurately one’s deeds. If these verses are looked at them out of context and simply by themselves it would be easy to conclude that salvation is by works and not by faith. However, since there are up to 200 passages that teach that salvation is by faith we know that this is not the case. No one passage can contradict such an overwhelming body of evidence.

How are we to understand works?
The book of Proverbs says “that even the plowing of the wicked is an abomination in the sight of God.” The best work that man can do, is still an evil work because he is not saved. Plowing a field to raise a crop of wheat to provide a community with wheat to make their bread is evil in God’s sight, unless the man is saved.
Isaiah 46:6
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--There is not one righteous deed that an unsaved man can do.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
--The point is well made. Man in his unsaved state is unable to do good.

If believers are judged for their works there can only be condemnation.
All works before salvation were sinful. However, the blood of Jesus has wiped away all those sins. There is no charge against them. Jesus paid it all. Once saved a believer begins to practice good works. Those works will count for all eternity. Those good works will are the result of salvation, not the saving cause of it. And at the JSOC, their works will be reviewed and they will be rewarded according to their works.

But this passage does not deal with believers, it deals with the ungodly, the unsaved, and God’s condemnation of them. Thus verse 7

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
--This verse does not mean that these people are saved by patience continuance in well doing. That would be another gospel. No man would naturally live a life of good works without being born again. They cannot do it without divine power. The fact that he seeks after glory, honor and immortality shows that he has already been born again. He already has been converted.

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
--These do not obey the truth. They have never answered the gospel call. They have chosen to live a life of unrighteousness. Their lives are characterized by their disobedience.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
--Now the apostle repeats God’s verdict concerning the two kinds of workers, except this time he does it in reverse order.
The verdict is tribulation and anguish to everyone who does evil. The fact that the Jew is mentioned first is only because they received the light of the gospel first. All will be judged without impartiality by the righteous judge.

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
--Remember no one can attain heaven by good works. This is speaking of the saved. The verdict will be glory, honor, and peace to everyone (Jew or Gentile), who works what is good. There is no partiality with God, as is emphasized in verse 11.

There is nothing here about ME. It does talk about rewards for the saved, and condemnation for the unsaved, and that is all.

​

 

[av1611jim]

The problem with this passage is that it is too often taken out of its context to come to a proper understanding. So let’s begin at looking near the beginning of the chapter. In fact from 1:18 to 3:20 Paul expounds on the universal need of the gospel, and this is just one very small section of that part. From 1:29-32 Paul lists a dark list of sins which characterize man in his alienation from God. Notice that these are not occasional sin; but that they are full of these sins. They have the knowledge that not only are these sins wrong, but they that do them are worthy of death. This condemnation is on the unsaved.

With that Paul proceeds to chapter two, and a different class of people; this for some has been difficult to identify. Much of this chapter is directed right to the Jew, and yet the Gentile is not completely ignored. It seems that he is speaking to those that are morally upright in their own eyes. They have been given God’s light (both Jews and Gentiles), but what have they done with it? We can note in this chapter that the sins of cultured people are the same as those of the heathen. God is not partial. Thus the straightforward condemnation, aimed particularly at the Jews:

Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
--How can an ungodly or unsaved Jew judge another (Gentile) when he is committing the same sins? How ludicrous a thought! They should be ashamed for even thinking such a thought. But this is the self-righteous position of many unsaved—both Jew and Gentile.

Verse two—emphasizes that the judgment of God is according to truth.
Verse three—emphasizes that the judgment of God is inescapable.
Verse four—emphasizes that the judgment of God is sometimes delayed.
Verse five—emphasizes that the judgment of God can be accumulated, gradually.

From verses 6 to 11 Paul reminds us that the judgment of God will be according to works, or more accurately one’s deeds. If these verses are looked at them out of context and simply by themselves it would be easy to conclude that salvation is by works and not by faith. However, since there are up to 200 passages that teach that salvation is by faith we know that this is not the case. No one passage can contradict such an overwhelming body of evidence.

How are we to understand works?
The book of Proverbs says “that even the plowing of the wicked is an abomination in the sight of God.” The best work that man can do, is still an evil work because he is not saved. Plowing a field to raise a crop of wheat to provide a community with wheat to make their bread is evil in God’s sight, unless the man is saved.
Isaiah 46:6
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
--There is not one righteous deed that an unsaved man can do.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
--The point is well made. Man in his unsaved state is unable to do good.

If believers are judged for their works there can only be condemnation.
All works before salvation were sinful. However, the blood of Jesus has wiped away all those sins. There is no charge against them. Jesus paid it all. Once saved a believer begins to practice good works. Those works will count for all eternity. Those good works will are the result of salvation, not the saving cause of it. And at the JSOC, their works will be reviewed and they will be rewarded according to their works.

But this passage does not deal with believers, it deals with the ungodly, the unsaved, and God’s condemnation of them. Thus verse 7

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
--This verse does not mean that these people are saved by patience continuance in well doing. That would be another gospel. No man would naturally live a life of good works without being born again. They cannot do it without divine power. The fact that he seeks after glory, honor and immortality shows that he has already been born again. He already has been converted.

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
--These do not obey the truth. They have never answered the gospel call. They have chosen to live a life of unrighteousness. Their lives are characterized by their disobedience.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
--Now the apostle repeats God’s verdict concerning the two kinds of workers, except this time he does it in reverse order.
The verdict is tribulation and anguish to everyone who does evil. The fact that the Jew is mentioned first is only because they received the light of the gospel first. All will be judged without impartiality by the righteous judge.

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
--Remember no one can attain heaven by good works. This is speaking of the saved. The verdict will be glory, honor, and peace to everyone (Jew or Gentile), who works what is good. There is no partiality with God, as is emphasized in verse 11.

There is nothing here about ME. It does talk about rewards for the saved, and condemnation for the unsaved, and that is all.

[/indent]

And THAT sir, is your ERROR! You glom onto one passage and ignore the rest to your own embarassment. All of these passages my brother posted are addressed to believers!!!!!!! NOT ONE of those warnings apply to an unbeliever. Now you have to ask yourself, WHAT IS PAUL WARNING YOU ABOUT??????

You asked for Pauline doctrine concerning what we have been telling you. We have been reluctant either because A) you would dismiss it as you did here or B) we are tired of telling you and telling you and telling you and telling you. Yet my brother has gone ahead and humoured your request only to have you continue spewing your erroneous doctrine of goodies for the saved with NO ACCOUNTABLITY but condemnation and warning to the unsaved. Ever hear about reading YOUR OWN mail???? Try it sometime. You just MIGHT understand. But it has happened unto you true to the proverb.........

... ye cannot hear lest hearing ye should understand and be converted.

 

[TCGreek]

1. I cannot understand why folks think that since Paul addressed all his writings to Christians, that means that he cannot make reference to the unsaved/non-Christians. This is a gross misunderstanding.

2. It is clear from Romans 1:18-3:20 that Paul divides all of humanity between Jews and Gentiles, and that both are in need of salvation (3:9, 10).

3. This is DHK's point, and it is correct.

 

[av1611jim]

TC;
I did not miss nor misunderstand DHK's point. But the fact is that he (among others) had been clamouring for Pauline passages explaining the KA doctrine and he ignored the great majority of my brother's list of those self same passages.

THAT was my point.

Care to address the totality of the listed passages outlining KA doctrine now?

 

[DHK]

TC;
I did not miss nor misunderstand DHK's point. But the fact is that he (among others) had been clamouring for Pauline passages explaining the KA doctrine and he ignored the great majority of my brother's list of those self same passages.

THAT was my point.

Care to address the totality of the listed passages outlining KA doctrine now?

Please have patience. The first reference you posted wasn't one reference but a passage of five. Look how long my post was. I couldn't possibly answer the entire list you gave in one post. Besides if you want meaningful debate, I'll wait until I hear from you that you will accept the passage as I have explained, or if you have any questiions, then I will go to the next. I cannot do all your Scriptures in one post. Please have a little patience.

 

[DHK]

And THAT sir, is your ERROR! You glom onto one passage and ignore the rest to your own embarassment. All of these passages my brother posted are addressed to believers!!!!!!! NOT ONE of those warnings apply to an unbeliever. Now you have to ask yourself, WHAT IS PAUL WARNING YOU ABOUT??????

If this is true (that these scriptures appy to believers only, then is it also true that in the same passage 1:18-3:20, this passage also describes believers:

Romans 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Are you sure that this is a description of the believer?

 

[npetreley]

The passage is also talking about eternal life. If anyone claims that's 1,000 years, they've introduced the same "etymology" fallacy into Paul that they've used to infect other scriptures.