Another verse that blows ME out of the water

[BrianReimer]

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

The chapter contrasts the saved to the unsaved. The saved, who seeks spiritual things: glory, immortality, eternal life, will receive glory, honor and peace, not only in this earth but in glory to come.

So you are demonstrating the contrast between the saved/unsaved with 2:7-10? And to be born from above (spiritually saved) requires: patient continuance in well doing? And you are not "saved" if you are contentious, do not obey the truth, and obey unrighteousness? Help me understand you please.

 

[Accountable]

1. I know of no Scripture that says that general revelation in itself leads to saving knowledge of God. Let me know if there's such.

By your name "TCGreek" I thought you might know already that this in no way is "general revelation."

2. If Romans 10:9-13 doesn't address the issue of salvation, I don't know what else it has in mind.).

Romans 10 does not deal with spiritual salvation at all.
I am more than glad to debate this with you if you are interested. Don't you think we should start another thread though to deal with this issue?

 

[Accountable]

Where do you get that from? Who said he was?

These people dealt with in Romans 1 had a true knowledge of God. To make them sinners is to have an Arminial view of salvation.

 

[BrianReimer]

1. Your debating tactics have become legendary on BB.

I agree with you TCGreek. I am blessed to learn from such legendary debaters as James_Newman, Lacy Evans, JJump, Rufus1611, Hope of Glory, av1611jim and others. There will be more as the Gospel of the Kingdom is once again preached to the Church. It's about time! Matthew 24:14 Acts 28:31

2. I'm done with this ME doctrine. DHK, all the best.

C'mon TCGreek, you are among the more reasonable and polite. Stay with it brother.

[/quote]

 

[npetreley]

Cool. Another ME guy to add to my ignore list.

 

[BrianReimer]

Cool. Another ME guy to add to my ignore list.

I'm devastated.

 

[Accountable]

Why is it so hard to accept that Paul is talking to both believers and unbelievers? How many times does your pastor preach salvation through Christ? Does he offer an invitation to come and accept Christ as Savior? Is he speaking to the believers in your church? Is he trying to save them over and over again? There are unbelievers and those who are in the process of coming to Christ in every church.

This is just common sense.

Amy,
If you have 50 people in your church who have previously recieved Christ and no visitors, why does he give a call to salvation? Why does he give an "invitation to accept Christ? If, as you say, there are unbelievers present in every church, shouldn't you give them the message on move on? The pastor cannot save anyone. Many are trying by repeating the message Sunday after Sunday, just using different verses, many out of context.

Don't get me wrong, if I see someone new in the congregation, I always give the simple gospel of grace. It doesn't take an hour, three times a week. I led three people to Christ today on the streets. It isn't that hard to just be a messenger. I am not against spreading this gospel.

The latter day church has taken a different aproach then the Bible apraoch. We pray for God to send sinners to the church when biblicaly they are not to come to us, God sends the church to them. We are getting lazy. Let's win them to Christ, then bring them to the congregation to grow, not to hear how to get saved again.

I pray that you see that we are not serving God by going to church. Our service starts onced the worship ends and we leave the building and enter the mission field.
He said "GO iye nto all the world" and not GO to church and I will SEND them to you.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy,
If you have 50 people in your church who have previously recieved Christ and no visitors, why does he give a call to salvation? Why does he give an "invitation to accept Christ? If, as you say, there are unbelievers present in every church, shouldn't you give them the message on move on? The pastor cannot save anyone. Many are trying by repeating the message Sunday after Sunday, just using different verses, many out of context.

Don't get me wrong, if I see someone new in the congregation, I always give the simple gospel of grace. It doesn't take an hour, three times a week. I led three people to Christ today on the streets. It isn't that hard to just be a messenger. I am not against spreading this gospel.

The latter day church has taken a different aproach then the Bible apraoch. We pray for God to send sinners to the church when biblicaly they are not to come to us, God sends the church to them. We are getting lazy. Let's win them to Christ, then bring them to the congregation to grow, not to hear how to get saved again.

I pray that you see that we are not serving God by going to church. Our service starts onced the worship ends and we leave the building and enter the mission field.
He said "GO iye nto all the world" and not GO to church and I will SEND them to you.

Surely you don't think that the church in Rome, Corinth, Ephesus, ect. only had 50 members? There were probably thousands. How was Paul to know each and every one? Especially since he spent a lot of his time in prison?

Even in our modern day churches, visitors come and go and it's impossible for the pastor to know at first glance if there are any on a given day. Unless of course there is only a handful of regulars.

Why do you think I do not know that we are to serve God outside of the church building?
You seem to presume a lot and do not understand my posts.

 

[DHK]

So you are demonstrating the contrast between the saved/unsaved with 2:7-10? And to be born from above (spiritually saved) requires: patient continuance in well doing? And you are not "saved" if you are contentious, do not obey the truth, and obey unrighteousness? Help me understand you please.

I see you are from Kingdom Baptist Church. Your debating tactics are like the rest just as TCGreek observed. Do you really want to learn or just waste space?
Paul is not describing how to be born again.
He isn't even describing how to be saved.
He is describing the condition of the unsaved as opposed to that of the saved.
If you want the message of salvation in Romans please see Romans 10:9-13.
If you want other passages on salvation in the book of Romans I wil be glad to oblige, but Romans 2:7-10 is not one of those passages.

 

[npetreley]

I see you are from Kingdom Baptist Church.

Home of Joey "Faustus" Faust? Really? He must have preached a call to invade BB in his last sermon. They really should start their own board instead of saturating orthodox Baptist boards like this one with their nonsense.

 

[BrianReimer]

He is describing the condition of the unsaved as opposed to that of the saved.

This passage describes judgement according to DEEDS! How could someones spiritual salvation be in question here? Wouldn't that be spiritual salvation based on works? One either accepts or rejects Jesus' work on the cross for spiritual salvation...period. Once again, this passage describes judgment based on deeds.:wavey:

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[DHK]

This passage describes judgement according to DEEDS! How could someones spiritual salvation be in question here? Wouldn't that be spiritual salvation based on works? One either accepts or rejects Jesus' work on the cross for spiritual salvation...period. Once again, this passage describes judgment based on deeds.:wavey:

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

No one's salvation is in question. Verse six speaks of the judgement of God. God's judgement is without partiality. Look at the condemnation in verse five. It parallels closely with Rev.20:10-15, the GWT for the unsaved, where the unsaved will stand before God and each man judged according to their works, and all will be cast into the lake of fire. They are treasuring up wrath against the day of wrath (GWT).

 

[npetreley]

No one's salvation is in question. Verse six speaks of the judgement of God. God's judgement is without partiality. Look at the condemnation in verse five. It parallels closely with Rev.20:10-15, the GWT for the unsaved, where the unsaved will stand before God and each man judged according to their works, and all will be cast into the lake of fire. They are treasuring up wrath against the day of wrath (GWT).

Besides, this part of Romans is early in a very long lesson about salvation. At this point, Paul is still establishing that God is righteous for judging men according to their works (Paul hasn't introduced grace yet). Paul is about to show that even Jews, who have the law to follow, still sin. After that, he'll establish that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And so on. You can't yank a few verses out of Romans 2 and say it's about kingdom salvation. Well, you CAN (someone did just that), but it's foolish.

 

[Lacy Evans]

He is describing the condition of the unsaved as opposed to that of the saved.

Prove it. Just prove that and I'll shut up.

Ephesians 5:1-7
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

 

[DHK]

Prove it. Just prove that and I'll shut up.

The first three chapters of Romans deal primarily with the unsaved. Remember that the entire epistle is written on the theme of salvation. The first three chapters deal with the sinfulness of mankind. The first chapter addresses the sinfulness of the Gentiles. The second chapter addresses the snfulness of the Jews as well as the Gentiles. And the third chapter addresses the sinfulness of the entire world.
--All have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All in the world, both Jew and Gentile, no matter who you are--you have sinned and are guilty before God. There is no talk of salvation here. It is entirely condemnation. We are condemned because of our sn.

It is so evident in every passage of the first three chapters:
Look here:
Romans 3:9-18 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This describes the condition of the unsaved; it has nothing to do with a saved person. Do the saved people in your church behave like the above?

Again in chapter one:
Romans 1:29-32 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
--Are these the sins characteristic of a saved person?
What does it say? "Who knowing the judgment of God that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
That is the statement of an unsaved person, not a saved person.

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Are lesbianism and homosexuality characteristic of Christians or the unsaved?

These passages describe the condition of the unsaved. Does this convince you Lacy? In the plan of salvatioin you must convince a person that he is lost; show him his sinful condition before he is able to see his need for a Savior. Paul shows that all have sinned before he discussed the doctrine of salvation by faith (which begins from chapter 3:21).

 

[Accountable]

Besides, this part of Romans is early in a very long lesson about salvation. At this point, Paul is still establishing that God is righteous for judging men according to their works (Paul hasn't introduced grace yet). Paul is about to show that even Jews, who have the law to follow, still sin. After that, he'll establish that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And so on. You can't yank a few verses out of Romans 2 and say it's about kingdom salvation. Well, you CAN (someone did just that), but it's foolish.

Why is Paul giving a "long lesson" about salvation to BELIEVERS????? Am I the only one puzzled about this. This would be like teaching the ABC's in College English 101 and 2+2 in Algebra 101. Also, if it is dealing with, as you sy, along lesson on salvation, why didn't Paul give this long lesson to the Phillipian Jailor? Why didn't Philip give this "long lesson" to the Eunich? Answer: The gospel of Grace is simple and easy enough to be given to a child.
Something amazing to think about:
When the Phillipian jailor wanted to be saved, he didn't sign up for a 6 week course entitled "What makes man a sinner & what he must do to be saved 101."

He knew he wasn't saved without 2, 3, or 4 chapters to tell him he was unsaved.
He knew he wanted to be saved. He asked and it didn't take 3 or 4 chapters nor 3 or 4 verses to tell him how to get saved. It was simple, BELIEVE.

To say that Romans (especially chapter 10) is to show someone how to be saved is to take away from the simplicity in John. Nowhere in John does it say to do anything more than believe.

Guys it is simple. To try and draw a summary out of Romans dealing with "unsaved" individuals and how to lead them to Christ is taking it out of context. If you believe that Romans 1 deals with the unsaved, 2 deals with the unsaved, etc, is to totaly reject the Liberty in Galations, the principles in John, and the simplicity in Acts.
So which books are inspired? ALL and all are in harmony when kept in context.

 

[npetreley]

Amen, DHK. You did a much more eloquent job of saying what I was trying to say.

 

[Accountable]

Surely you don't think that the church in Rome, Corinth, Ephesus, ect. only had 50 members? There were probably thousands. How was Paul to know each and every one? Especially since he spent a lot of his time in prison?

Even in our modern day churches, visitors come and go and it's impossible for the pastor to know at first glance if there are any on a given day. Unless of course there is only a handful of regulars.

Why do you think I do not know that we are to serve God outside of the church building?
You seem to presume a lot and do not understand my posts.

I never said that Paul only preached to 50. It may very well have been many. Either he knew their spiritual condition or God knew. (Of course God knew.) If you believe in the preserved Word of God, as we should, and if you believe that God inspired every Word, jot and tittle, then surely God knew what He was doing when He allowed Paul to write:
Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren,
2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:


Also concerning him not knowing them:
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Php 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Php 1:3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,

Sounds to me like he knew them.

Again, I believe EVERY Word to be true and insppired by God alone. Did God make a mistake? I would believe the moon was made out of cheese before I could ever believe this is a mistake.

God Bless.

 

[Accountable]

I see you are from Kingdom Baptist Church. Your debating tactics are like the rest just as TCGreek observed. Do you really want to learn or just waste space?

Though this was not written to me, I must say: I am not a member of Kingdom Baptist but I have preached there on numerous ocasions. If one knew the true humbleness of their dear Pastor, one would not be so wuick to pass judgement. I consider myself lower on the pole than the wonderful people of Kingdom Baptist and would be honored to hang my hat with any of them. They are indeed some of the boldest witnesses for Christ on the entire globe. I am honored to call them all my friends.

If you want the message of salvation in Romans please see Romans 10:9-13.
If you want other passages on salvation in the book of Romans I wil be glad to oblige, but Romans 2:7-10 is not one of those passages.

I would be curious for you to oblige the information that Romans 10 is dealing with spiritual salvation. How is this possible when according to John AND Paul, all that is required of God is for us to BELIEVE?

 

[Accountable]

Home of Joey "Faustus" Faust? Really? He must have preached a call to invade BB in his last sermon. They really should start their own board instead of saturating orthodox Baptist boards like this one with their nonsense.

Casting stones are we?