Any Dispensationalist in the house?

[vooks]

Under the title "Any Dispensationalist in the House?" I responded to the OP:



Answer me this first (and I will answer your question so well you'll abandon the preterist heresy):

Can you prove God commanded Solomon to build the first Jewish Temple?

I feel this deserves its own thread.

For the record am no Preterist so your charge of heresy is uninformed as only your ignorance can afford :laugh:

God never commanded Solomon to build nothing. The temple was King David's idea. God approved of it but stopped him, postponed it till Solomon came to power

 

[JohnDBaptiste]

For the record am no Preterist so your charge of heresy is uninformed as only your ignorance can afford :laugh:

God never commanded Solomon to build nothing. The temple was King David's idea. God approved of it but stopped him, postponed it till Solomon came to power

So you (though not a Preterist) are legitimizing Preterism?

 

[vooks]

So you (though not a Preterist) are legitimizing Preterism?

Am questioning mindless faith in the hopelessly absurd. If that is legitimizing preterism, so be it.

Can you walk me through what purpose bloody sacrifices and incense ordained of God serve post-Calvary? Thank you

Only somebody who has never heard much less read Hebrews would fantasize post Calvary sin offerings

 

[vooks]

Means the Mosaic Law will be back in force, the Temple will be rebuilt... but obviously not according to God's plan. But in the end it will serve his purposes. All things eventually do.

I was looking for this punchline.
So you are saying that YHWH gives elaborate INSTRUCTIONS for temple worship but it is not according to His plan?:tonofbricks:
Clearly you have never read Ezekiel

These three portions are nothing but INSTRUCTIONS. God is saying 'this is how you will do it'
Ezekiel 40:46 (ESV)
46 and the chamber that faces north is for the priests who have charge of the altar. These are the sons of Zadok, who alone among the sons of Levi may come near to the Lord to minister to him.

Ezekiel 41:4 (ESV)
4 And he measured the length of the room, twenty cubits, and its breadth, twenty cubits, across the nave. And he said to me, “This is the Most Holy Place.”

Ezekiel 42:13- 14 (ESV)
13 Then he said to me, “The north chambers and the south chambers opposite the yard are the holy chambers, where the priests who approach the Lord shall eat the most holy offerings. There they shall put the most holy offerings—the grain offering, the sin offering, and the guilt offering—for the place is holy. 14 When the priests enter the Holy Place, they shall not go out of it into the outer court without laying there the garments in which they minister, for these are holy. They shall put on other garments before they go near to that which is for the people.”


Ezekiel 43 is the most intriguing chapter. Listen to what YHWH has to say concerning His temple;
Ezekiel 43:4-7 (ESV)
4 As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, 5 the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple.6 While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, 7 and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever. And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoring and by the dead bodies of their kings at their high places,

Ezekiel 43:11-12 (ESV)
make known to them the design of the temple, its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, that is, its whole design; and make known to them as well all its statutes and its whole design and all its laws, and write it down in their sight, so that they may observe all its laws and all its statutes and carry them out. 12 This is the law of the temple: the whole territory on the top of the mountain all around shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the temple.

Ezekiel 43:27 (ESV)
27 And when they have completed these days, then from the eighth day onward the priests shall offer on the altar your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, and I will accept you, declares the Lord God.”

You need to think hard over and over again before claiming that the temple was not God's plan.
V11 and 12 gives us the PURPOSE of the vision; God expected them to observe the temple regulations/Law.

You also need to think even harder when you attempt to allegorize Ezekiel's temple. Why all the details? What purpose for instance do the measurements serve?

And finally, you need to appreciate the implication of allegorizing the temple; it breaks to smithereens Dispensarionalism literalism

 

[JohnDBaptiste]

Isaiah 66:1–6 (AV)
1Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
5Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name’s sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
6A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

 

[vooks]

Isaiah 66:1–6 (AV)
1Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
5Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name’s sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
6A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

This is the kind of nonsense that bores me stiff.
Ignore all questions raised and then choke us with scriptures minus commentaries. We are basically talking past each other.

Go back to Ezekiel and answer my question or admit Dispensationalism has no explntion for Ezekiel's temple

 

[steaver]

Am questioning mindless faith in the hopelessly absurd. If that is legitimizing preterism, so be it.

Can you walk me through what purpose bloody sacrifices and incense ordained of God serve post-Calvary? Thank you

Only somebody who has never heard much less read Hebrews would fantasize post Calvary sin offerings

I have read through this thread and I am not sure just what it is you are in disagreement with concerning Ezekiel's temple. Do you believe it was already built in the past?

 

[vooks]

I have read through this thread and I am not sure just what it is you are in disagreement with concerning Ezekiel's temple. Do you believe it was already built in the past?

You can start by answering these questions;
1. Do you believe YHWH gave Ezekiel the temple blueprint and instructions for temple worship?
2. Has any of what YHWH spoke concerning the temple come to pass?
3. If YES to #2, when and where did this happen? If NO to #2, do you expect it to come to pass in the future, or do you foresee a restitution of bloody sacrifices post-Calvary?

 

[steaver]

You can start by answering these questions;
1. Do you believe YHWH gave Ezekiel the temple blueprint and instructions for temple worship?
2. Has any of what YHWH spoke concerning the temple come to pass?
3. If YES to #2, when and where did this happen? If NO to #2, do you expect it to come to pass in the future, or do you foresee a restitution of bloody sacrifices post-Calvary?

1. Yes
2. Not to my present knowledge concerning this issue.
3. If it has not come to pass, then it must be yet to come.

So I am asking you what do you believe about these same questions...

 

[vooks]

1. Yes
2. Not to my present knowledge concerning this issue.
3. If it has not come to pass, then it must be yet to come.

So I am asking you what do you believe about these same questions...

What purpose do bloody sacrifices and Levites serve post-Calvary?

 

[steaver]

What purpose do bloody sacrifices and Levites serve post-Calvary?

Have we first established if this temple is yet to be built or has been built already?

 

[vooks]

Have we first established if this temple is yet to be built or has been built already?

There has been nothing like it in the entire KNOWN history so it is safe and wise to conclude it is yet to be built.

What purpose would such a mega-structure and its bloody sacrifices serve post-Calvary?

 

[steaver]

There has been nothing like it in the entire KNOWN history so it is safe and wise to conclude it is yet to be built.

What purpose would such a mega-structure and its bloody sacrifices serve post-Calvary?

Not sure. I haven't studied that out much if "bloody sacrifices" actually take place. However, God does nothing without purpose, so if the scripture declares it will happen post-Calvary, then it will indeed happen.

 

[Yeshua1]

What purpose do bloody sacrifices and Levites serve post-Calvary?

What purposes does water Baptism and communion serve post the Cross?

 

[vooks]

Not sure. I haven't studied that out much if "bloody sacrifices" actually take place. However, God does nothing without purpose, so if the scripture declares it will happen post-Calvary, then it will indeed happen.

You don't need to 'study much', just study Ezekiel

Ezekiel 45:15 (KJV)
And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation for them, saith the Lord God

Ezekiel 45:17 (KJV)
And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel

In short, the sacrifices serve the same purpose as the Mosaic sacrifices; atonement.
And one wonders what ADDITIONAL atonement is necessary post-Calvary that was not accomplished at the cross

Hebrews 10:1-4 (ESV)
1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

When you study Hebrews, you fully appreciate there is NOTHING like reverting to bloody sacrifices nowhere. Those are expired shadows, whose reality is Calvary. They were not sufficient. Jesus and His Apostles draw us away from those and you have some Dispensationalists drawing us back. Whatever Ezekiel wrote, it has ZERO validity post-Calvary

 

[vooks]

What purposes does water Baptism and communion serve post the Cross?

These are emblems or memorials.
Before you start dancing around and shouting, 'so are the bloody sacrifices',you need to explain to me why the bloody sacrifices stopped with the Calvary. Why NOW you no longer offer sacrifices

 

[steaver]

Whatever Ezekiel wrote, it has ZERO validity post-Calvary

It seems you are dismissing the prophecy as basically worthless babel. Ezekiel said there is a new temple to come and it has not yet happened. He said there are blood sacrifices. If God showed him these things then most certainly they will come to pass. Just bc we may not understand the why doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. I would attempt to understand why God is having sacrifices in His temple post cross rather than declaring Ezekiel is wrong.

 

[vooks]

It seems you are dismissing the prophecy as basically worthless babel. Ezekiel said there is a new temple to come and it has not yet happened. He said there are blood sacrifices. If God showed him these things then most certainly they will come to pass. Just bc we may not understand the why doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. I would attempt to understand why God is having sacrifices in His temple post cross rather than declaring Ezekiel is wrong.

Nobody is dismissing Ezekiel, am dismissing your interpretation thereof.
Hebrews is sufficient proof that there just is NEVER YHWH sanctioned reverting to bloody sacrifices post-Calvary. Ezekiel's prophecy would find meaning anywhere before Calvary not after.

 

[steaver]

Nobody is dismissing Ezekiel, am dismissing your interpretation thereof.
Hebrews is sufficient proof that there just is NEVER YHWH sanctioned reverting to bloody sacrifices post-Calvary. Ezekiel's prophecy would find meaning anywhere before Calvary not after.

But you have no idea where? The temple Ezekiel spoke of and all it entails has not yet happened. So that makes it all post Calvery.

 

[vooks]

But you have no idea where? The temple Ezekiel spoke of and all it entails has not yet happened. So that makes it all post Calvery.

And God would gladly contradict Himself in reverting humanity to bloody sacrifices?