saturneptune
New Member
What kind of question is that? There are enough unclear isssues in the Bible without making one a debate that is quite clear.
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Any here Believe In Biblical annihilation?
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preacher4truth
Active Member
Agreed and well stated.
Again, a teaching, which is beyond our understanding, reason, logic, and one most certainly will take place is the eternal suffering of the lost.
The reason as to why this must happen is again beyond our comprehension, just in the same manner that Gods choosing whom He wills to choose is also beyond our comprehension.
There are two avenues:
1) Choose to accept it and trust God fully in it.
2) Rationalize it away and bring this truth to an anthropocentric level of reason in the same manner other sound truths are often brought down to the same level.
I opt for 1.
Think that we have to realise that the Bible teaches that Hell is just as eternal in duration as heaven is....
And that the death and resurrection of jesus appeared to have bought "eternal life" for saints and sinners, its just that eternal life for saints will be started while still alive on earth, and continue with God forever, while starts for sinners at death as they will live out forever ina bodily form...
So God still gracious to aloow sinners to exist forever, and grants their ultimate freewill choice to finally reject Him!
And that the death and resurrection of jesus appeared to have bought "eternal life" for saints and sinners, its just that eternal life for saints will be started while still alive on earth, and continue with God forever, while starts for sinners at death as they will live out forever ina bodily form...
So God still gracious to aloow sinners to exist forever, and grants their ultimate freewill choice to finally reject Him!
preacher4truth
Active Member
Sinners aren't living in freedom of the will but are instead enslaved to sin, only the Son can set them free.
Michael Wrenn
New Member
I don't believe that a just God would punish eternally for sins committed during a human life span.
Eternal hell is a belief imported from paganism; it was not taught or believed in the early church. Further, as I have shown, the word incorrectly interpreted as "eternal" did not mean eternal but rather a long, indefinite period of time. It's funny how literalists won't accept the literal, original meaning and definition of a word if it conflicts with what they believe.
Eternal hell is a belief imported from paganism; it was not taught or believed in the early church. Further, as I have shown, the word incorrectly interpreted as "eternal" did not mean eternal but rather a long, indefinite period of time. It's funny how literalists won't accept the literal, original meaning and definition of a word if it conflicts with what they believe.
convicted1
Guest
Hmmm.....some very good posts on this thread, I will have to do some deeper research on this. It is hard to think of eternal torment for anyone, very hard. Only a sadist indeed wants that. Only a sadist would want a deserter (for instance) to be executed, but justice may require it. The Scriptures do seem clear enough to me that unfortunately punishment is eternal. Rev 20:10. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. If the false prophet is a human, he will suffer eternal punishment. Then note the fate of the damned in Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Indeed, but you would have to suggest that God wants this, no? God's justice may require it, but it does not mean God is pleased with it.
This is true in that we can learn that there is indeed concious punishment/torment after death, but this is not either the rich man's or Lazarus's final resting place.
Indeed, but you would have to suggest that God wants this, no? God's justice may require it, but it does not mean God is pleased with it.
This is true in that we can learn that there is indeed concious punishment/torment after death, but this is not either the rich man's or Lazarus's final resting place.
Annihilation is a JW belief and just one of what I see as many errors on their part.
psalms109:31
Active Member
If you go with the age translation you miss out of the eternal aspect of the word Aion, it is an eternal age. If eternity is not eternity but an indefinite period of time then you would have to believe eternity with God is just an indefinite period of time. The age in scripture is an eternal age not a temporary age.
2 Corinthians 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
Whatever pagans believed or did not believe....does not change what Jesus revealed. The word for eternal is used of those who reign in heaven ,as well as those who go into second death.
Why do you believe men in hell will stop sinning?.....the continue on in sin that is why they remain in the realm of the dead forever.
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:wavey::thumbs::jesus: I was wondering when someone would bring that up..the "knashing of teeth" described seems to suggest to me men remaining in an angry rebellion against God...unrepentant...and defiant. Good post.:applause:
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htm
A discourse from an annihilation perspective
A discourse from an annihilation perspective
Hi Cypress, thanks for the link, though it seemed to go the long way around the barn. 
It might have been in there somewhere, but I did not see where torment in the afterlife was discussed as a fact. Yes, it made a good case, in my opinion, against eternal torment, i.e. torment forever, but I did not see where torment as punishment was acknowledged for misdeeds to satisfy God's justice for the wrath the lost piled up during their lifetime.
In other words, it was not clear that while it agreed "Gehenna" was a fact, it seemed to think of it as a place of annihilation rather than torment, then annihilation.
Did you see where the fact of torment for a debatable period was acknowledged?
It might have been in there somewhere, but I did not see where torment in the afterlife was discussed as a fact. Yes, it made a good case, in my opinion, against eternal torment, i.e. torment forever, but I did not see where torment as punishment was acknowledged for misdeeds to satisfy God's justice for the wrath the lost piled up during their lifetime.
In other words, it was not clear that while it agreed "Gehenna" was a fact, it seemed to think of it as a place of annihilation rather than torment, then annihilation.
Did you see where the fact of torment for a debatable period was acknowledged?
Revelation 14:9-13 seems to indicate human beings that accept the mark of the beast will be tormented day and night forever. But is this what the text really says?
Clearly they will drink of the wine of the wrath of God full strength, and will be tormented in the presence of the Lord and holy angels. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. But this might only mean the consequences of being in torment and not in Christ lasts forever and ever.
And finally, they will have no rest day and night. Many assume this means they will have no rest from the torment day and night forever and ever, but it is equally as likely the idea is they will not enter the Lord’s rest, because they are not “in Christ.”
In summary, the idea of eternal torment is a possible understanding of scripture, but ultimate destruction and loss of conscious awareness after a period of torment to satisfy God's wrath remains a viable alternative view.
Clearly they will drink of the wine of the wrath of God full strength, and will be tormented in the presence of the Lord and holy angels. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. But this might only mean the consequences of being in torment and not in Christ lasts forever and ever.
And finally, they will have no rest day and night. Many assume this means they will have no rest from the torment day and night forever and ever, but it is equally as likely the idea is they will not enter the Lord’s rest, because they are not “in Christ.”
In summary, the idea of eternal torment is a possible understanding of scripture, but ultimate destruction and loss of conscious awareness after a period of torment to satisfy God's wrath remains a viable alternative view.
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Hi Cypress, thanks for the link, though it seemed to go the long way around the barn.
It might have been in there somewhere, but I did not see where torment in the afterlife was discussed as a fact. Yes, it made a good case, in my opinion, against eternal torment, i.e. torment forever, but I did not see where torment as punishment was acknowledged for misdeeds to satisfy God's justice for the wrath the lost piled up during their lifetime.
In other words, it was not clear that while it agreed "Gehenna" was a fact, it seemed to think of it as a place of annihilation rather than torment, then annihilation.
Did you see where the fact of torment for a debatable period was acknowledged?
Hey Van, I dont think it directly addresses a duration of torment. Perhaps these two paragraphs most directly relate to your question.
"Traditionalists read "eternal punishment" as "eternal punishing," but this is not the meaning of the phrase. As Basil Atkinson keenly observes, "When the adjective aionios meaning ‘everlasting’ is used in Greek with nouns of action it has reference to the result of the action, not the process. Thus the phrase ‘everlasting punishment’ is comparable to ‘everlasting redemption’ and ‘everlasting salvation,’ both Scriptural phrases. No one supposes that we are being redeemed or being saved forever. We were redeemed and saved once for all by Christ with eternal results. In the same way the lost will not be passing through a process of punishment for ever but will be punished once and for all with eternal results. On the other hand the noun ‘life’ is not a noun of action, but a noun expressing a state. Thus the life itself is eternal."35
A fitting example to support this conclusion is found in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, where Paul, speaking of those who reject the Gospel, says: "They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."36 It is evident that the destruction of the wicked cannot be eternal in its duration, because it is difficult to imagine an eternal, inconclusive process of destruction. Destruction presupposes annihilation. The destruction of the wicked is eternal–aionios, not because the process of destruction continues forever, but because the results are permanent. In the same way, the "eternal punishment" of Matthew 25:46 is eternal because its results are permanent. It is a punishment that results in their eternal destruction or annihilation.":thumbs:
The question of those who "vote" for a one time destruction that will never be rebuilt and therefor "everlasting" as opposed to those who would "vote" for a continuum of suffering for eternity comes down to the question of can man ever pay for the righteousness of God.
To those who hold that God is not appeased by the sacrifice of man and that man cannot initiate by their own "will" an audience with God, then the lake of fire is an eternity in which unregenerate man never recovers for there is no mechanism to "balance the scale" or appease the wrath of God for unbelief.
To those who do not hold that view, there is (for lack of a better term) a purgatorial view in which the flames and torment are but a while and that eventually all humankind will attain the pleasures of God's presence and peace, and leaving the "eternal torments" to the direct purpose of the lake of fire - the devil and his angels.
Therefore, it really comes down to the authority and sovereignty of God.
God is either righteous in both mercy and justice or He is held for all eternity to some kind of "time" consideration. Because God is not held even in this era by any "time" consideration, then it follows that eternity in the flames means torment for eternity without regard to when it will end and debt paid.
To those who hold that God is not appeased by the sacrifice of man and that man cannot initiate by their own "will" an audience with God, then the lake of fire is an eternity in which unregenerate man never recovers for there is no mechanism to "balance the scale" or appease the wrath of God for unbelief.
To those who do not hold that view, there is (for lack of a better term) a purgatorial view in which the flames and torment are but a while and that eventually all humankind will attain the pleasures of God's presence and peace, and leaving the "eternal torments" to the direct purpose of the lake of fire - the devil and his angels.
Therefore, it really comes down to the authority and sovereignty of God.
God is either righteous in both mercy and justice or He is held for all eternity to some kind of "time" consideration. Because God is not held even in this era by any "time" consideration, then it follows that eternity in the flames means torment for eternity without regard to when it will end and debt paid.
My question is.
For the wages of sin eternal torment in hell fire apart, from God: but the gift of God eternal life in his presence, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
For the wages of sin death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Do those two statements say the same thing?
For the wages of sin eternal torment in hell fire apart, from God: but the gift of God eternal life in his presence, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
For the wages of sin death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Do those two statements say the same thing?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Do you mean "reveals," or do your really mean "predetermines hell and those who will go there before they are even born?" That is the difference and the reason you do accept my words.
I actually believe God doesn't desire anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9). I actually believe He grieves at the loss of those who reject him, so from my perspective God is not a 'sadist.' From your perspective I can see why such a view of hell may cause such difficulty though....another good reason to leave your view behind.
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Hi Cypress, I do not equate eternal punishment with eternal punishing. But I also do not equate torment with destruction. Unless those that advocate for destruction in Gehenna, clarify their view on the duration of torment, they seem to be evading truth. Jesus said those who die unsaved go to Hades immediately and are in torment. Now when those whose spirits are in Hades are resurrected to the white throne judgement, they are then tossed, body and soul, into the lake of fire. Are they immediately destroyed, or do they suffer additional torment as punishment for their sins in Gehenna before they are destroyed. Without taking a position on these two areas, those that argue against eternal torment seem to be firing an unloaded gun.
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