Any here Believe In Biblical annihilation?

[percho]

Hi Cypress, I do not equate eternal punishment with eternal punishing. But I also do not equate torment with destruction. Unless those that advocate for destruction in Gehenna, clarify their view on the duration of torment, they seem to be evading truth. Jesus said those who die unsaved go to Hades immediately and are in torment. Now when those whose spirits are in Hades are resurrected to the white throne judgement, they are then tossed, body and soul, into the lake of fire. Are they immediately destroyed, or do they suffer additional torment as punishment for their sins in Gehenna before they are destroyed. Without taking a position on these two areas, those that argue against eternal torment seem to be firing an unloaded gun.

Just from your post let's try to determine, duration.

(You wrote) Jesus said those who die unsaved go to Hades immediately and are in torment.
(You also wrote) Now when those whose spirits are in Hades are resurrected to the white throne judgement, they are then tossed, body and soul, into the lake of fire.

Let me ask, do those spirits in Hades and or the bosom of the Abraham have,
eyes, fingers, tongues? Jesus did not say he was immediately was in torment. Jesus said in Hades he lift up his eyes (KJV)
having-lifted-upon to-the-ones to-eyes of-it, (Westott & Hort)
ON-LIFTing THE VIEWers OF-him (Scripture4all interlinear Greek)

This man was being resurrected as was the beggar, Lazarus.

The rich man body and soul was on the verge of being cast into the lake of fire.
He said of Lazarus, send him to my fathers house. What was the manner in which he would have to go? Verse 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead BY resurrection.

Maybe less time than one would think being in torment.

 

[Yeshua1]

Sinners aren't living in freedom of the will but are instead enslaved to sin, only the Son can set them free.

agree with you as in regards to salvation itself, as they need to be enabled to even come to christ by God, but referring more to the lord granting them what they really want to do, to stay seperated away from His presense!

 

[webdog]

Wondering if this question pertains to this discussion...if Heaven cannot hold our sinful flesh, how can hell (prepared for the devil and his crew) hold that part of man made in His image?

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you mean "reveals," or do your really mean "predetermines hell and those who will go there before they are even born?" That is the difference and the reason you do accept my words.

I actually believe God doesn't desire anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9). I actually believe He grieves at the loss of those who reject him, so from my perspective God is not a 'sadist.' From your perspective I can see why such a view of hell may cause such difficulty though....another good reason to leave your view behind.

You are the one who speaks of sadism...I just quoted the language you posted. Mis using 2pet 3:9 does not get you off the hook.


I mean reveals as Jesus taught it more than anyone.

God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked...by they will be cast into hell. the fact that God has ordained a place of conscious eternal torment does not change the discussion...so there is no reason to leave the biblical view anywhere! We should believe all revealed truth. We see that the saints in heaven praise the Lord for His righteous judgement.....I see no one accusing God of sadism,or being a monster ...like some do in here.

Revelation 19

1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.


i would suggest if you can not align your theology with the theology of the saints in heaven....you need to re-evaluate your position:thumbsup:

 

[preacher4truth]

i would suggest if you can not align your theology with the theology of the saints in heaven....you need to re-evaluate your position:thumbsup:

And I add a solemn 'Amen' to that.

 

[Skandelon]

You are the one who speaks of sadism...I just quoted the language you posted.

Sadism is by definition taking pleasure in the pain of others. If indeed a doctrine teaches that God pleasures in the torment of others then they would support the idea that God is a sadist. Those are just facts. My doctrine teaches that God does not take pleasure in the perishing of wicked, and I believe that is likewise affirmed by many Calvinists. I'm not sure why you want to take issue with this.

Mis using 2pet 3:9 does not get you off the hook.

Are you suggesting God doesn't desire for all to come to repentance? Or that God does desire for some to perish?

God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked...

Right, so why are you taking issue with what I've said?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Sadism is by definition taking pleasure in the pain of others. If indeed a doctrine teaches that God pleasures in the torment of others then they would support the idea that God is a sadist. Those are just facts. My doctrine teaches that God does not take pleasure in the perishing of wicked, and I believe that is likewise affirmed by many Calvinists. I'm not sure why you want to take issue with this.


Are you suggesting God doesn't desire for all to come to repentance? Or that God does desire for some to perish?


Right, so why are you taking issue with what I've said?

:applause::thumbsup:

 

[Alive in Christ]

John Stott held to this.

You beat me to it.:smilewinkgrin:

John Stott did indeed hold to some degree of annihialism. And he is no heritic.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sadism is by definition taking pleasure in the pain of others. If indeed a doctrine teaches that God pleasures in the torment of others then they would support the idea that God is a sadist

.

No Calvinist that I know of, no calvinist here on BB ....teaches or suggests such an idea.This is your brain-child. I quoted from Ezk...God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked......Jesus wept over Jerusalem...nevertheless.... He will not hesitate at the White throne Judgement at all, when he has all the unsaved cast into second death.

So...once again ...it is your misunderstanding of the teaching that has you making accusations against God.and His righteous judgement.

Those are just facts. My doctrine teaches that God does not take pleasure in the perishing of wicked, and I believe that is likewise affirmed by many Calvinists. I'm not sure why you want to take issue with this.

What you were doing is suggesting that if second death is conscious eternal torment....which it is.....then somehow this "you consider" sadistic.Thats why I am taking issue with it. I said I was not trying to Jump all over your words.... I was trying to make sure if that was not what you meant to imply.

Are you suggesting God doesn't desire for all to come to repentance? Or that God does desire for some to perish?

2 peter 3:9 has been explained several times in the last couple of months.
The bible no where says God desires all men to come to repentance.
This passage that you and others insist on mis-using does not teach that.

The fact is that God wills that many perish,Mt 7;21-24....multitudes will perish at the white throne. God's will always gets done.

If you now are going to dance around and play word games about the word desire,or desires.....I am not interested in that exercise. The judgement of God is a legal matter, with an exact penalty to be exacted.God will save multitudes, multitudes will be damned.{that is a seperate thread however}

The bible does not teach that God is like an old man ,or a grandfather, wishing and hoping that sinners might consider what he wants them to do.
God has a plan and purpose...The Son, made under the law,comes to redeem a multitude ......all men everywhere are to repent.
Those found in Christ will be saved...those outside have no propitiation ...and will justly suffer the wrath of God without mercy.The redeemed in Rev 19:1-3 are seen singing halleluia,and praising God for this judgement.They have their theology correct.

Right, so why are you taking issue with what I've said?[/

QUOTE]

because this is another example of what you do in your zeal to attack calvinism....no calvinist suggests bible teaching is sadistic....as you imply,because you struggle with revealed truth:thumbs:

 

[Alive in Christ]

In discussing this topic, it is important to contrast the doctrine of eternal torment, with the doctrine of eternal punishement. The word translated "punishment" has a root meaning of confinement, so a possible meaning is eternal separation from God.

Second, some who advocate annihilation, think when we physically die, and are not saved, our human spirit is annihilated immediately, thus teaching that after-life torment in Hades and Gehenna does not happen. This runs against many passages of scripture and is therefore false doctrine.

The middle view is that Satan and his co-horts are eternally tormented just as scripture says, but humans are tormented as required to fulfill God's perfect justice, and then are destroyed, ending their existence forever. Thus they endured punishement in the form of torment for their deeds, just as scripture says, and are eternally separated from God, thus undergoing eternal punishment.

The key verse is the one where "the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever." The traditional view equates smoke rising forever with ongoing torment forever. However, the idea could be that the consequence of torment in Hades and Gehenna is eternal, thus smoke stands for consequence.

Lastly, "their worm does not die" appears to mean "the maggots that eat them never die" and thus refers to eternal destruction with no possible resurrection to life.

Very good. An excellant synopsis of the minority view.

 

[Skandelon]

No Calvinist that I know of, no calvinist here on BB

I know that which is why I wondered why you were taking issue with my point. We SHOULDN'T be in disagreement on the point I made but yet you chose to take issue with my words...

Enough, I'm getting off this merry-go-round...we get no where and are left feeling dizzy. :wavey:

 

[Van]

Reply to Percho

Just from your post let's try to determine, duration.

(You wrote) Jesus said those who die unsaved go to Hades immediately and are in torment.
(You also wrote) Now when those whose spirits are in Hades are resurrected to the white throne judgment, they are then tossed, body and soul, into the lake of fire.

Let me ask, do those spirits in Hades and or the bosom of the Abraham have,
eyes, fingers, tongues? Jesus did not say he was immediately was in torment. Jesus said in Hades he lift up his eyes (KJV)
having-lifted-upon to-the-ones to-eyes of-it, (Westott & Hort)
ON-LIFTing THE VIEWers OF-him (Scripture4all interlinear Greek)

This man was being resurrected as was the beggar, Lazarus.

The rich man body and soul was on the verge of being cast into the lake of fire.
He said of Lazarus, send him to my fathers house. What was the manner in which he would have to go? Verse 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead BY resurrection.

Maybe less time than one would think being in torment.

You ask, do the spirits in torment have physical bodies to sense torment? No. But they are in torment according to Jesus. Illustrations demonstrate truth. No need to thrown out the truth because the illustration had limits.

Next, you seem to be asserting that he had been resurrected. But he is still in Hades, not Gehenna. And Jesus is speaking of His future resurrection unto life, not the resurrection to the Great White Throne Judgment.

Has no one actually studied the passages that describe the duration of the torment???

 

[percho]

You ask, do the spirits in torment have physical bodies to sense torment? No. But they are in torment according to Jesus. Illustrations demonstrate truth. No need to thrown out the truth because the illustration had limits.

Next, you seem to be asserting that he had been resurrected. But he is still in Hades, not Gehenna. And Jesus is speaking of His future resurrection unto life, not the resurrection to the Great White Throne Judgment.

Has no one actually studied the passages that describe the duration of the torment???

Van,

The rich man in Hades life up his eyes (implies being resurrected) Judgement comes and he is not found written and is being cast into the lake of fire. He can feel the heat and is in torments from the heat, talks to Father Abraham about sending the the one resurrected to life at the time he had been resurrect to damnation, that is Lazarus to his father's house.

 

[Yeshua1]

I know that which is why I wondered why you were taking issue with my point. We SHOULDN'T be in disagreement on the point I made but yet you chose to take issue with my words...

Enough, I'm getting off this merry-go-round...we get no where and are left feeling dizzy. :wavey:

Would you hold that God is active in judging sinners, that He personally gets involved in their punishment for all eternity as payment for their sins?

OR

that he has ordained that there will be punishment/judgement against all sins, but that He has determined that, but in a passive way?

I do not see jesus going to hell and stoking up the fires, as He will be active in their judgement, but releases them unto the lake of Fire....

 

[Van]

Pitchback

Van,

The rich man in Hades life up his eyes (implies being resurrected) Judgement comes and he is not found written and is being cast into the lake of fire. He can feel the heat and is in torments from the heat, talks to Father Abraham about sending the the one resurrected to life at the time he had been resurrect to damnation, that is Lazarus to his father's house.

To look up or to look across a chasm does not imply resurrection. Hades is described as a place of torment, and the guy was in torment in Hades. No need to rewrite it.

 

[percho]

To look up or to look across a chasm does not imply resurrection. Hades is described as a place of torment, and the guy was in torment in Hades. No need to rewrite it.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell,

Would you care to describe just what torment He may have been in?

Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning [him] to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

Would you say that when, they laid [her] in an upper chamber, she was in Sheol/Hades? Why was she able to open her eyes from Sheol/Hades?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Again, "aionios"/"aion" does not mean without end or forever. It is a gross error and mistranslation to maintain that it does.

Jesus referred to divine judgment as "aionios kolasis", meaning age-long chastisement; this implies a limited, corrective punishment.

Pagan writers wrote about eternal punishment -- "aidios timoria".

These are different words with different meanings.

 

[mandym]

Jesus referred to divine judgment as "aionios kolasis", meaning age-long chastisement; this implies a limited, corrective punishment.

The implication is imagined. Hell was created for Satan originally, and there is no indication that either will be corrected and released. To believe so fails to see the gravity of sin. Hell is eternal because sin is just that grievous.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The implication is imagined. Hell was created for Satan originally, and there is no indication that either will be corrected and released. To believe so fails to see the gravity of sin. Hell is eternal because sin is just that grievous.

Not imagined when the word so clearly does not mean eternal but a long, indefinite period of time. It's dishonest to translate aion as eternal. If eternal was intended, a different Greek word would have been used. The early church did not teach eternal hell; that concept was brought in from Roman paganism, Zoroastrianism, and elsewhere. It's sad that Christians buy into a picture of a god who would eternally, unconditionally torture his creatures.

That said, I don't deny the possibility that hell could last forever because I believe in the freedom of the will and thus the possibility that one could go on rejecting God and repentance indefinitely. And the meaning of the word "aion" or "eon" perfectly reflects that -- a long, indefinite period of time.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Matt 25:46. 'And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'

The NKJV translation notwithstanding, the Greek words for 'eternal' and 'everlasting' are the same- Aionios. Therefore if hell is not forever, then neither is heaven.

Steve