Any such thing as Satan's music?

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Mike McK:


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />so i'm happy to claim that i don't know everything that Amy Grant has ever produced. (On the other hand, i do not think i had given false information on anybody either. )

What you've said about Grant and Smith has been a little misleadng.
</font>[/QUOTE]with all due respect to Smith and Grant, i said they are on the top of the pops. i do not think that was "a little" misleading. everthing else, you have to check if i misquoted the Bible.

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Mike McK:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What do you do to show Him you love Him?

I don't "do" anything. Jesus said "if you love Me, then you'll keep my commandments".

If that's good enough for Him, it's good enough for me. </font>[/QUOTE]sir, are you listening to what you are saying?
Where do you keep His commandments??? In your pocket?

i challenge you so search the Word of God to see what His commandments are and keep them, DO them.

James 2:17-22 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 

[Mike McK]

with all due respect to Smith and Grant, i said they are on the top of the pops. i do not think that was "a little" misleading.

Yes, but what you failed to mention was that it wasn't their "Christian" music that was popular among non-Christians, but their mainstream stuff.

i challenge you so search the Word of God to see what His commandments are and keep them, DO them.

I do, thank you.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Su Wei:

"Exodus 32:7-8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Exodus 32:17-19 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp. And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear. And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount."

Read the whole chapter yourself.
But i stuck this here to show that the worship of the Golden Calf produced a sound that sounded distinctly different from the worship of Jehovah God. Joshua thought it was the noise of war, but Moses realized that it was singing, but a singing that sounded more like people fighting.

Singing communicates ideas and a message. Notice how you are forced to use an example of singing when the topic is specifically focused on music? Again, The Bible makes no moral claims about music in any capacity.

Originally posted by Su Wei:

There is a right way and a wrong way to worship God. Be not mistaken!

That is true, but there is most definately not a right or wrong musical style to worship God. I'll grant that there are musical styles more appropriate for public worship than private, but there is no way you can say that Christian rap or rock and roll is innapropriate if it is done in a spirit of true worship.

Originally posted by Su Wei:

i do mean children of Satan.

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

John 8:42-45 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Okay, I've always thought of "the children of the wicked one" as being those who have been given the Law but continue in willful disobedience. In any case my apologies for being frivilous. I understand what you are trying to communicate.

Originally posted by Su Wei:
i think i'd be right to say, Travelsong, that you don't believe that music has any effect on a person physically?

No, I don't believe that. Music certainly has the power to get the blood pumping or sooth or a variety of things. It just doesn't have the power to communicate evil and good messages. It can't be morally evil or good in and of itself.

Originally posted by Su Wei:
then, i again, have to point out to you:

1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

This is not a commentary on the inherent moral nature of music. You might desperately want it to be, but it isn't. David played a harp and soothed Saul. Music can be powerfully therapeutic, but it can't be morally good or evil.

Originally posted by Su Wei:
Yes, i am talking entirely about musical styles.
I hope that clears up most of the miscommunication!

The challenge that I pose to you doesn't really change that much. Please explain what musical styles are evil, and what makes them evil. You can make all the moral claims you want but when it comes down to brass tax you have to at some point reach a level of practical application by demonstrating exactly how your moral claims are true.

Originally posted by Su Wei:
Songs that are God's songs should be songs that carry the same qualities of God Himself: majestic, grand, great, beautiful, sweet, tender, gentle. Of course, there are sorrowful songs too that depict the sorrow and pain that Christ endured on the cross for our sins.

Why do say this as if I would disagree? What you are doing is simply limiting the musical styles that you would allow to fall into this category.

Originally posted by Su Wei:
I can think of songs that are angry, hateful, full of strife, sensuous, lusty. These reflect the personality of Satan, and, to state the obvious, shuld not be used to praise God.

Why do you now revert to talking about songs when applying these moral labels? Do you see how your argument must always shift it's focus from music to songs? Please name for me one single solitary stinking piece of music that communicates hateful, lusty, or sensuous thoughts or feelings. While you're at it feel free to name one piece of music that glorifies God. When you get down to the practical application of your moral claims you can't avoid talking about WORDS, because only words can communicate moral and immoral ideas.

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />with all due respect to Smith and Grant, i said they are on the top of the pops. i do not think that was "a little" misleading.

Yes, but what you failed to mention was that it wasn't their "Christian" music that was popular among non-Christians, but their mainstream stuff.

Point taken with apology.

i challenge you so search the Word of God to see what His commandments are and keep them, DO them.

I do, thank you. </font>[/QUOTE]

Matthew 5:13-16 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

________________________

Some final thoughts:

Music can be judged in and of itself, this is true. But it would degenerate into a meaningless list of dos and don'ts if you don't have the entire backing of God's Word, His personality, and our creature/Creator relationship with Him.

Yes, and the doctrine of Separation, i did not come up with the term, you know

. Ask your Pastor about it. And if he hasn't heard of it either, get yourself a good KJV study edition Bible. I recommend the New Open Bible.

Are you ready to meet Jesus?

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Su Wei:
[qb]Songs that are God's songs should be songs that carry the same qualities of God Himself: majestic, grand, great, beautiful, sweet, tender, gentle. Of course, there are sorrowful songs too that depict the sorrow and pain that Christ endured on the cross for our sins.

Why do say this as if I would disagree? What you are doing is simply limiting the musical styles that you would allow to fall into this category.

</font>[/QUOTE]No, i did not say this as if you would disagree. Don't get self-defensive! I stated that it was to illustrate my position or something like that.

But, yes, i would be saying that in order to have music that refects the personality of God, it would limit the styles of music we can use.
(I see you do agree that there are music styles that do not reflect the goodness and glory of God!

)

There are rules to this "race", you know. and God is the Judge and Refree.

2 Timothy 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

_______________

Still, when Moses and Joshua came down from the mountain, they didn't hear any WORDS. it was the sound of the noise of war.

And if you were cleansed of an EVIL SPIRIT, wouldn't you say that music has moral goodness in it, to say the least?

 

[Mike McK]

Yes, and the doctrine of Separation, i did not come up with the term, you know . Ask your Pastor about it. And if he hasn't heard of it either, get yourself a good KJV study edition Bible. I recommend the New Open Bible.

Are you ready to meet Jesus?

Are you always this condescending?

I do know what separation means, thank you. It's just that the phrase is thrown about so often by the more rabid among us to mean something that the Bible never intended that it's lost any real meaning.

 

[timothy 1769]

But, yes, i would be saying that in order to have music that refects the personality of God, it would limit the styles of music we can use.
(I see you do agree that there are music styles that do not reflect the goodness and glory of God!

)

how about music to reflect his wrath?

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Originally posted by Ruth:

As for Ezekiel 28:13, this is the first time I have heard someone interpret that as relating to Lucifer. The commentaries I have read all refer to this chapter as being about the Tyrian kingdom and line of succession, since they had been an established kingdom for an extended period of time, with the rulers coming from a single familial line.

Ruth

If you read Ezekiel 28:12-15, you will see that this portion of scripture is speaking of Satan. Tyre was not an anointed cherub, was not in the garden of Eden, was not Holy upon the hill. Satan was behind the King of Tyre. The discription is one that needs to be studied thoroughly by anyone to see that Satan has a part in music. He has a purpose for his knowledge and music is part of it.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Su Wei:
(I see you do agree that there are music styles that do not reflect the goodness and glory of God!

I don't even know what that means. I don't see how music by itself could reflect the goodness and glory of God. What I said was that there are musical styles which are more appropriate for public worship than others. Obviously using rap or rock and roll at a Sunday service would not be appropriate for many people. As far as reaching youth though, those musical styles certainly are appropriate.

Originally posted by Su Wei:
There are rules to this "race", you know. and God is the Judge and Refree.

2 Timothy 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

What has this got to do with the price of eggs in China?

_______________

Originally posted by Su Wei:
Still, when Moses and Joshua came down from the mountain, they didn't hear any WORDS. it was the sound of the noise of war.

Actually it wasn't war. It was calamity. When Moses came down he saw the dancing and the calf. The Isrealites were engaged in all kinds of wickedness. Again, there is nothing here about music, plain and simple.

Originally posted by Su Wei:
And if you were cleansed of an EVIL SPIRIT, wouldn't you say that music has moral goodness in it, to say the least?

No, how could it? If music was a prescription for demon possession The Bible would say so. In any case it's your job do demonstrate how music could possibly be morally good or evil. You're the one making the claims but as of yet have not provided one shred of evidence.

 

[rufus]

rufus, who started this thread, really thanks all of you for "HELP" on this topic.

rufus

 

[Ruth]

Rufus, I am sorry that this thread was hijacked, so to speak. I did try my best to respond to your questions, but I think that possibly we may be talking at cross-purposes here due to a difference in interpretation of certain passages in the Bible. My apologies for not being of more help.

TheOliveBranch - we obviously do not see the same things in Ezekiel 28. If you wish to discuss this further, please start a thread in a more appropriate place and let's get everyone in on it!

Ruth

 

[rufus]

Ruth, thanks.

I don't disagree with your interpretation of Ezekiel 28; I believe there is a dual reference, as often happens in Hebrew prophetic literature; things are said about the king of Tyre that are not historically actual; many scholars over the years have seen a "power" behind the throne of Tyre (like in Isaiah 14).

Ezekeil 28 describes the "power" behind the Tyrean throne as having "timbrels and pipes" (see Ezekiel 26:13). That is a reference to music and musical instruments.

Therefore, IF it is a veiled reference to Lucifer (in Hebrew means Light Bearer or Shining One), then he was a musical creature. IF he is now Satan, he potentially could use those skills to deceive and to kill.

Thanks for your Christian charity, Ruth.

rufus

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by Su Wei:
Can you imagine playing R&B or jazz to a group of soldiers before they go to war?

Frankly, no. I also cannot imagine playing "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" or "I Surrender All" as a trumpet call to battle. In a situation like the Alamo, maybe it would be fitting to for the last trumpet tune to be "Rock of Ages."

For those who actually have fought in battle-- what trumpet call-- if any-- did you hear? R&B, jazz, Hymns For the Family of God, or something else?

 

[Ruth]

Originally posted by rufus:
I don't disagree with your interpretation of Ezekiel 28; I believe there is a dual reference, as often happens in Hebrew prophetic literature; things are said about the king of Tyre that are not historically actual; many scholars over the years have seen a "power" behind the throne of Tyre (like in Isaiah 14).

rufus

Hmmm. Gonna have to think about that for a while, and do a little research. I can't rule it out offhand, but I am wary of reading meanings into something that is not actually written there when God told Ezekiel to direct this message to a specific individual. But you have given me something to consider! Thanks.

Ruth

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by rufus:
rufus, who started this thread, really thanks all of you for "HELP" on this topic.

rufus

Sincere apologies to Rufus if this thread has been more confusing than helpful.

There are alot of points here but it's just very jumbled. Just read through carefully. Maybe you could read the points (ideas and philosophy) given by Mike McK and Travelsong separately, and the points i was trying to make. May God lead you to the right conclusion!

Well, all i can say is, God never left us helpless in this world, and the Bible is available to point us the way.

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by am ha'aretz:
But, yes, i would be saying that in order to have music that refects the personality of God, it would limit the styles of music we can use.
(I see you do agree that there are music styles that do not reflect the goodness and glory of God!

)

how about music to reflect his wrath?

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.


Oops....gonna be accused of talking about eggs in China again.

[ February 26, 2003, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: Su Wei ]

 

[Su Wei]

Travelsong, I guess we are getting too argumentative to be helpful to anyone so i really do not wish to continue.

the fact of the matter is that God did not write in His Word theses four words "abstain from Satan's music". but it does not mean that there is no such thing. and therefore open the church to all kinds of impurity.

I have selected and shown you verses upon verses but you do not accept that as evidence. I have nothing more to say.

maybe you may go and do a study of the Bible yourself about music, and Satan and Separation, because i haven't heard a single verse from you to support your claims.
(double oops!!! being condescending again!!!)

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yes, and the doctrine of Separation, i did not come up with the term, you know . Ask your Pastor about it. And if he hasn't heard of it either, get yourself a good KJV study edition Bible. I recommend the New Open Bible.

Are you ready to meet Jesus?

Are you always this condescending?

I do know what separation means, thank you. It's just that the phrase is thrown about so often by the more rabid among us to mean something that the Bible never intended that it's lost any real meaning. </font>[/QUOTE]ah, no, i'm not always so condescending. But only under special circumstances.

I knew you wouldn't have liked me to ask you to live for Christ and do something for Him. But if it takes someone from halfway around the world to (lovingly) give you a piece of good advice, so be it! Get mad at me. But not at God, please.

I will pray for you!

 

[Su Wei]

For all the other Fundametal, Separatists out there who left me to flounder by myself...

Galatians 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


Triple oops!!!