Any such thing as Satan's music?

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Su Wei:
I knew you wouldn't have liked me to ask you to live for Christ and do something for Him.

No, what I don't like is some self righteous stranger on their spiritual high horse who's never met me nor seen how I live my life telling me what I should do and implying that I'm, somehow, not on the same high spiritual plane as them.

Get mad at me. But not at God, please.

Why would I be mad at God? God's not responsible for the stupid behavior of his followers.

[ February 26, 2003, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Mike McK ]

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Su Wei:
I knew you wouldn't have liked me to ask you to live for Christ and do something for Him.

No, what I don't like is some self righteous stranger on their spiritual high horse who's never met me nor seen how I live my life telling me what I should do and implying that I'm, somehow, not on the same high spiritual plane as them.

Get mad at me. But not at God, please.

Why would I be mad at God? God's not responsible for the stupid behavior of his followers. </font>[/QUOTE]Sincerest apologies for the stupid behaviour.

For that matter, no (fill in the blank) stranger has ever called me rabid either.

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Originally posted by Ruth:
Rufus, I am sorry that this thread was hijacked, so to speak. I did try my best to respond to your questions, but I think that possibly we may be talking at cross-purposes here due to a difference in interpretation of certain passages in the Bible. My apologies for not being of more help.

TheOliveBranch - we obviously do not see the same things in Ezekiel 28. If you wish to discuss this further, please start a thread in a more appropriate place and let's get everyone in on it!

Ruth

Excuse me Ruth. But I believe that I did answer the question. Satan's music is real, and this is in the Bible. The way to develope discernment is to engulf yourself with the Bible. Music theology is scattered thoughout the Bible, and we won't find answers as to what is right and what is wrong by listening to all music and stating our preferences. There is some very good Biblical studies on music, it's purpose and Satan's intents. You have based your opinions on falicy, and lack of knowledge of the Bible. A statement like "If music is used in the praise of God to glorify Him, it cannot be evil. He did not say that he would only accept certain "forms" of praise" goes as far back as Cain and Abel.

rufus,
Try finding some of the studies done by Frank Garlock. There are forms of music that are wrong, and music is a form of worship. It can be proper, and it can be wrong. One thing I had been taught is one of the sure signs of falling away is by the music that is used in the church. It should help to set the mood for worship, and also be pleasing to the Lord.

You would find answers, biblically based, if you ask and search the Scriptures. If you leave the Bible out of the question, you will get opinions, not answers.

 

[rufus]

TheOliveBranch

Thank You for YOUR "INSIGHTFUL" answer????

rufus

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by Su Wei:
I have selected and shown you verses upon verses but you do not accept that as evidence. I have nothing more to say.

Maybe they're not accepted because in virtually every case they had nothing to do with the subject. Posting random verses solves nothing besides practicing your typing skills.
First, you should find verses that deal the subject in questions. Second, you should tell exactly why this verse applies, maybe you're interpreting it differently and that's why I'm sitting here going "What on earth does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?"

God bless,
`JD
[Edited some formatting]

[ February 26, 2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: JonathanDT ]

 

[Travelsong]

JonathanDT:

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

It's not as though I don't understand the argument Su Wei and others are trying to make against music. It's that their arguments don't apply. Not only do their arguments not apply, they don't even attempt to show how the verses they reference support their claims.

The argument is essentially this:

1)Certain musical styles are of the world.

2)The Bible clearly states that as Christians we are not to be of the world.

Conclusion: Certain musical styles are unacceptable.

The problem with this reasoning is that it presupposes an axiom without attempting to empirically establish it. If statement 1 is true then of course statement 2 naturally follows. The crux of our problem is that Su Wei and others automatically jump from statement 1 to 2 and focus their attention solely on that without ever addressing our challenges which pertain exclusively to verifying the truth of number 1.

What makes certain musical styles evil and why? If you are so easily able to make such a moral claim whay should it be so difficult to establish it's truth?

What's worse is that the same people who are making these positive moral claims try to turn the tables and suggest that we are not providing evidence to support our position.It doesn't get any more disingenuous than that.

Actually it does.Because what underlines this entire debate is nothing short of self righteous judgement of others. We are called "carnal Christians". We are told that we can't possibly be studying our Bibles or guided by the Holy Spirit. How sickening. As if you know the first thing about my life or anyone else's, you are somehow able to come to this message board and pass moral judgement on everyone who disagrees with you.

Of course I can certainly see the necessity of using these kinds of diversionary tactics in order to save yourselves from ever actually PRESENTING AN ARGUMENT.

Okay, rant mode off.

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by JonathanDT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Su Wei:
I have selected and shown you verses upon verses but you do not accept that as evidence. I have nothing more to say.

Maybe they're not accepted because in virtually every case they had nothing to do with the subject. Posting random verses solves nothing besides practicing your typing skills.
First, you should find verses that deal the subject in questions. Second, you should tell exactly why this verse applies, maybe you're interpreting it differently and that's why I'm sitting here going "What on earth does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?"

God bless,
`JD
[Edited some formatting] </font>[/QUOTE]

1. I am not talking in some code or something. there are people out there who actually see the reasons i selected the verses that i did.

I am not being holier than thou when i nail this difference to the amount of good, and careful preaching and teaching i have receieved over the last decade. Just being honest.

And you will never know the difference until you step into a good old fashioned, unadulterated preaching of God's Word type service to know that what i'm saying is for real.

I know that if i had stayed in the church that emphasized other things over the Word of God, i would have the same ideas as some of the folks here.

2. no, i did not hand type all those verses!

I have a wonderful tool on the com called Sword Searcher.

3. yes, i agree with you that i did leave alot of gaps when i posted the verses without the explaination. I guess i assumed to much. my apologies.

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Travelsong:

1)Certain musical styles are of the world.

here's an answer you may have missed on pg 3. i hate to keep forcing my position but this apparently is very important to you that one proves that music is immoral.

I thought it was fair to ask you to state your position based on the Word of God. But then i was accused of deflecting an argument?
______________________________________
from pg 3:
[QB]There is no anti-god spirit in these. How on earth does a repetitive drum beat become evil because someone uses it to go into a trance? Are you saying that a repetitive drum beat is evil in and of itself? Please demonstrate how.

If you were to say that music has no effect on you physically, you would be opening yourself up to all kinds of deception.

Yes, the world over, repetitve drumming and chanting is used in trance.
Here in Singapore, the Hindus have a festival called Thaipusam whereby devotees fast for a day and then the next day, subject themselves to carry heavy structures called Kavadis. The Kavadis are not held in the hands of the devotees but are held by hundreds of hooks and needles pierced in the skin of the body. The tongue (sticking out) is also pierced and held out with a skewer-like piece of metal.

Throughout the whole ritual of piercing and walking (they have to carry the Kavadi over a respectable distance), other devotees are drumming loudly, crying and chanting to help the one going through the pain to get into a trance-like state.

Same for Chinese religions when they're inviting spirits to possess the body of a priest. drums and cymbals are used.

This similar practice of drumming and chanting i have also seen on documentaries of tribal cultures in other parts of the world.

NO, i would not say drumming is like swinging a watch. PLease....
Music has the power to move people and hits the mind at the subconcious level. Anyone subjected to music with this kind of drumming over a period of time will succum to the effects of it. No, i'm not saying that everyone will go into a trance but i am saying that if the world uses it in the act of evil, Satanic, anti-God worship it has no place in the worship of Almighty God.

and imagine someone getting saved out of that kind of pagan background only to finf THE SAME kind of beat in the church!

no wonder we are to abstain from APPEARANCES of evil. not even evil itself, mind you! The APPEARANCE of it!

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by Su Wei:

1. I am not talking in some code or something. there are people out there who actually see the reasons i selected the verses that i did.

Uh huh, I'm sure there are. And if I thought about it long enough, and twisted the verses out of context enough, I could probably figure out what you might be saying too. However, I'd hate to assume that your purposely taking a verse out of context without knowing for sure, so I'd prefer if you'd explain your reasoning for the verse so I don't make any bad assumptions.

I am not being holier than thou when i nail this difference to the amount of good, and careful preaching and teaching i have receieved over the last decade. Just being honest.

LOl.

So basically you're saying "I don't mean to be holier then thou, but I am much better trained then you." That's ok, I've learned to shrug off ignorant insults, though usually they don't come from fellow Christians.

And you will never know the difference until you step into a good old fashioned, unadulterated preaching of God's Word type service to know that what i'm saying is for real.

Ma'am, you don't have the slightest clue what kind of preaching I've heard, what kind of training I have, what depth of knowledge I have. I could have stated that I have incredible training, have heard from some incredible Bible teaching preachers(including my own father), and that your experience can't compare(which is basically what you've said to me, and I could accurately say that to probably 95% of born again believers). However, since I don't know you, I won't say that.

I know that if i had stayed in the church that emphasized other things over the Word of God, i would have the same ideas as some of the folks here.

You're implying that my church emphasizes other things over the Word of God? Maybe. Some things. Some people in our church tend to emphasize tradition over the Word of God. Fortunantly this has changed a lot, and God has opened many eyes to see that just because something is new, doesn't mean it's "evil."
God bless,
~JD

 

[JonathanDT]

Maybe if I gave you an example of what I'm talking about, you'll see my point on verses.
Say the subject is us sticking to traditions, even elevating them to a position above what the Bible says(This is relevent because I think many do this often, and it is one of the reasons hymns are clung to so tightly, because it is tradition, and we as humans like tradition). I might post a verse I think relevent, even if it is hard to understand how it applies.
1 Timothy 2:9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments;
Now I'll explain how the verse is relevent.
How many women braided their hair for church? Or wore gold jewelry? Or a nice, expensive dress? You see, despite Paul disparaging all of these things, women still wear gold, braid their hair, and wear costly dresses to church. Why? Because it is tradition. We have elevated tradition to a level of importance higher then that of the Bible, even ignoring what the Bible says. It is this importance given to tradition that causes people to place the hymns on a pedestal, and go so far as to claim the praise and worship songs as unGodly.

See? That's all I want, a short (or long) paragraph on why the verse is applicable.
God bless,
`JD

 

[go2church]

Yes, there is such a thing as Satan's music
It is loud, ear drum splitting and understood by very few people. What is this vile music you ask?
The ORGAN!!!! Run, hide, lock the doors and save the children here comes the one person that knows how to play that vile music and they are carrying a hymn book AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Originally posted by rufus:
TheOliveBranch

Thank You for YOUR "INSIGHTFUL" answer????

rufus

Being slightly confused by this answer, I will assume that you looked up frank garlock on the internet and came up with a rock musician. He is Dr. Frank Garlock and has close relation to majesty music, though that site is the childrens ministry of patch the pirate.

Here is some interesting and helpful links

Christian Rock

See: Music the big picture, toward the bottom of the list

Let Those Who Have Ears to Hear

Majesty Music

Videos

Rock music as a tool


There's alot found on the subject. The audio on Music is very good listening. Try to find Garrlocks book, titled "Music in Balance".

Hope this is clearer.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:


Rock music as a tool

All this guy does is make the same goofy claims the anti-rock people here make. He doesn't back them up, either.

Besdies, how much credibility does theguy have when he claims to be an expert, but doesn't even know the difference between WhiteHeart and Whitecross (who have just reunited, by the way).

There's alot found on the subject. The audio on Music is very good listening. Try to find Garrlocks book, titled "Music in Balance".

I would also recommend "Don't Stop the Music" by Dana Key (a Baptist minister), "All God's Children Got Blue Suede Shoes" by Christian artist/philospher, John Fischer and "Too Christian/Too Pagan" by Dick Staub.

These are much more balanced, examining rock from both sides.

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Mike, I have given, as has Su Wei, scripture to back our position. The links I have provided provide scripture to back what they have to say. You have given ...squat.
I am not here to try to change your stand, but to give rufus the biblical backing he is looking for. He wants his teens to be able to discern, something you obviously are lacking in, by your posts. Your argument doesn't hold water, so don't waste your time. I'm trying to help a brother with a question he asked. He can decide for himself, so why don't you put down your music and turn to your Bible for some answers?

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by TheOliveBranch:
Mike, I have given, as has Su Wei, scripture to back our position. The links I have provided provide scripture to back what they have to say. You have given ...squat.

I haven't brought up any scripture because the Bible is silent on this issue and I prefer not to try to twist scripture to suit my own ideology, as you guys do.

He wants his teens to be able to discern, something you obviously are lacking in, by your posts.

Sorry you feel that way. Fortunately for me, that's not your call to make. Which posts am I "lacking discernment" in?

Your argument doesn't hold water, so don't waste your time.

Neither do yours, but that hasn't stopped you.

He can decide for himself, so why don't you put down your music and turn to your Bible for some answers?

I do read my Bible. I guess that's why I don't feel the need to put people down to boost my self esteem, the way you and enda and Su Wei do.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
I do read my Bible. I guess that's why I don't feel the need to put people down to boost my self esteem, the way you and enda and Su Wei do.

Why do you think it is that these people feel the need to act so holier than thou? I think it's either a legitmization process where they constantly need to reinforce themselves, or else a diversionary tactic.

Here's all the Scripture I need to know that God hasn't commanded anything about musical styles:

Ephesians 5:19
And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,
19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;

Collosians 3:16
16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Isn't it interesting that is all the Bible has to say when exhorting us to worship in song? I wonder where all this extra legalist doctrine comes from?


Su Wei: Notice that after the myriad of times you have been asked to demonstrate how certain musical styles are evil the best you can come up with is repetitive drum beats being used to induce various states of trance?

Let's look at this a little closer. Do you believe that these pagan rituals make repetitive drum beats evil, or are repetitive drum beats evil in themselves? Does it require a certain type of drum to produce an evil percussion rythm or is all repetitive percussion evil?

Are ticking watches evil?

Are metronomes evil?

Are shoes in the dryer evil?

Before I deconstruct your reasoning I would like you to please answer those challenges. Thanks

 

[DanielFive]

Since you've seen fit to name me and shame me so to speak, I feel I have right of reply.

Let us set aside this whole controversy of whether the Bible states that rock music should or shouldn't be used in worship or whether we could go as far as to say it is satan's music.

I think we can at least partially clear up the argument using 1 Corinthians 8.

Obviously in this case the apostle Paul was using the issue of meat/food to illustrate his point.

The point I want to make is a simple one, I have a weak conscience regading the issue of rock music in the church. I remain to be convinced that the practice is NOT sinful. Therefore if I attend a church where rock music is used in worship, my conscience, rightly or wrongly tells me that this practice is sinful and dishonouring to God. I also feel that this music is associated with idolatry, my conscience tells me there is little difference between a 'pop idol' and a Christian rock muscian, to me both are seeking to glorify themselves rather than God.

By partaking in this worship I am committing a sin as my conscience becomes defiled. The strong language (perish) used in verse 11 suggests that a weak Christian such as myself, is sinning not merely because I think I am doing something wrong, but, as sin leads to sin, it will lead to me falling back into my idolatrous ways.

I'm sure that we can all agree that everything we do as Christians affects others (Romans 14:7)
You would claim the liberty to use rock music as a form of worship, because of your liberty shall the weak brother perish, FOR WHOM CHRIST DIED? (V11) but when ye so sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, YE SIN AGAINST CHRIST.

Consider the apostle Paul's response to this problem (v12), wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I WILL EAT NO MEAT WHILE THE WORLD STANDETH, lest I make my brother to offend.

Can you see what Paul is teaching here, he is willing to forego his liberty here in order to protect the weaker brother.

Paul is an ensample unto us all, are you willing to live according to this principal. If not you are rejecting the Word of God.

Alternatively you could ban all Christians like myself from your fellowship.
By insisting upon your right to use rock music you are displaying pride, by getting rid of it you are displaying love for the brethren.

The only other alternative is that you show us from scripture that rock music is a commendable form of worship and acceptable unto God. But by your own admission no such verses exist.

Hope you can see the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Su Wei]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mike McK:
I do read my Bible. I guess that's why I don't feel the need to put people down to boost my self esteem, the way you and enda and Su Wei do.

Why do you think it is that these people feel the need to act so holier than thou? I think it's either a legitmization process where they constantly need to reinforce themselves, or else a diversionary tactic.

Here's all the Scripture I need to know that God hasn't commanded anything about musical styles:

Ephesians 5:19
And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,
19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;

Collosians 3:16
16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.


Isn't it interesting that is all the Bible has to say when exhorting us to worship in song? I wonder where all this extra legalist doctrine comes from?
[/qb]

Call it "legalist" if you want, but isn't the Word of God so central in the very two verses you quoted?

Su Wei: Notice that after the myriad of times you have been asked to demonstrate how certain musical styles are evil the best you can come up with is repetitive drum beats being used to induce various states of trance?

Let's look at this a little closer. Do you believe that these pagan rituals make repetitive drum beats evil, or are repetitive drum beats evil in themselves? Does it require a certain type of drum to produce an evil percussion rythm or is all repetitive percussion evil?

Are ticking watches evil?

Are metronomes evil?

Are shoes in the dryer evil?

Before I deconstruct your reasoning I would like you to please answer those challenges. Thanks

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Well, nobody likes to have their brain picked, (and especially after being warned!)

I don't see honest sprit here other than one that is belittling and wanting to pick a fight. i've read Enda's reply and that's a good biblical illustration to the point i was making about Thaipusam. thanks!

 

[Su Wei]

johnathanDT,

I hate tradition as much as anybody else if it is doing somthing that is against the Word of GOd. (like baptising infants)

I am not, nor are the churches out there who stick to hymns, rejecting CCM as something that's "new" and therefore must be evil and SHUNNED. I hope you understand that.

With all due respect to your father, and all the preaching you've received, i know what i said sounds terrible but to say that one cannot judge another because you don't know the person first hand is not biblical either.

1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,...

Paul was not in the church of Corinth but wrote 16 chapters lamblasting the church for their childish christianity.

if one is calling himself a christian and going to a pub and has no discernment about what God thinks about it.. i don't have to know what he eats for breakfast to say he is not walking in the will of God.

I'm not saying i have the wisdom like Paul but one will have discernment about things, anything and everything if one studys the Word of God:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
Why do you think it is that these people feel the need to act so holier than thou? I think it's either a legitmization process where they constantly need to reinforce themselves, or else a diversionary tactic.

Yes, I think that's exactly what it is.

As a recovering Pharisee, I can tell you that there are primarily three reasons Christians act this way.

The first is that they don't understand the grace that they've been shown and so they can't show grace to others.

The second is that people who do these things are usually pretty insecure in their faith.

The third is that they see these things in themseves and, if they can't clean up their own lives, they try to fix others' by pointing out all the faults or percived faults they see in themselves.

It doesn't do any good to argue with them about it. They just have to grow out of it on their own.

Su Wei: Notice that after the myriad of times you have been asked to demonstrate how certain musical styles are evil the best you can come up with is repetitive drum beats being used to induce various states of trance?

Let's look at this a little closer. Do you believe that these pagan rituals make repetitive drum beats evil, or are repetitive drum beats evil in themselves? Does it require a certain type of drum to produce an evil percussion rythm or is all repetitive percussion evil?

Are ticking watches evil?

Are metronomes evil?

Are shoes in the dryer evil?

I know I've mentioned this before and not to get off the subject, TS, but one of my favorite bands, The Saw Doctors, has a song called "Hay Wrap".

The percussion in the song is set to the hay bailer on lead singer, Davy Carton's farm.

Does this mean hay bailers are evil?