Apostolic Uniqueness ....Guided into All Truth

[Iconoclast]

JonC,
[QUOTE]Hey, Iconoclast , hold up on the "attacks".[/QUOTE]

There are attacks going on in this thread? Lets see if we can identify the source of these attacks

Lets see what has come from the keyboard of JonC

1]There was no error on my part. Just so you don't try to wiggle out of your mistake instead of owning up to it -

2]Actually, @Iconoclast , I do understand if you cannot admit you took the first sentence of the quote of the OP and ran with it - taking it out of context. It is difficult sometimes for men to admit their mistake even when it is plainly before them. I do not necessarily understand why, but I understand some are built that way. I suppose it is pride.

3]But don't worry about it. It probably does not need saying that I've twisted nothing (my statement stands). I will not require you to once again consider my words as a whole. It is an issue of character and I do not believe forced values are true values. So stick with your claim, if that is who you are.

4]No matter what @Iconoclast would say there is NO scripture affording men spiritual truth absent the work of the Spirit. Scripture even states this of the lost.

5]I think @Iconoclast may, as you indicate, hold the teachings of some Reformers as on the same level with how Catholics view the pope. But this elevates man.

6]Yes. It is arrogant (perhaps the "original sin") to think that once saved we are no longer dependent on the Spirit of God. If the Apostles were dependent on the Holy Spirit then why on earth would we think we can come to truth independent of God? We are no more saved than were they.

This is an illustration of my caution to @Iconoclast regarding just how far he has drifted.

7]It is easy to dismiss @Iconoclast 's OP, but it needs to be taken seriously because it is a real issue in churches today.

I do not understand why we negate the work of the Spirit in the lives of believers. But I have observed that the OP is not alobe in its view of the Holy Spirit.

8]The intellectual movement of which @Iconoclast seems a member denies the present power of God in the life of the believer in favor of a formula or doctrine encompassing all needs of the believer. Scripture, however, presents the beluever not as empowered on his or her own accord bur completely dependent on God.

9]This is the problem when Christians confuse "meat" with "milk". The meat of the word is spiritual and points to a dependence on God.

10]Another issue is "walking in the spirit". How can we say we are walking in the spirit rather than the flesh EXCEPT we are walking in submition to the Spirit of God?

The more I think of it the more I come to see our brother @Iconoclast may have substituted human wisdom for the perfect Word of God.

We cannot claim to be Christian and at the same time abandon the guidance of the Holy Spirit

11]I am talking about the quote. It was mine. I did not quote John 16:13.

I am not offering you anecdotal experience. I am answering the OP. We can only know that which is spiritual through the Spirit.

I understand you disagree. I am not trying to change your mind. I am not even arguing against the error.

I am simply saying that Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit. He is our Helper. He indwells us (not just the Apostles). And He is active - not some sort of door to theology but God Himself.

That you argue against this truth speaks volumes. To attribute your acceptance of ANY spiritual truth to any means except God is wrong.


Now all of these came from the keyboard of our friend JonC.
Do they look like edifying, kind , and neccesary comments?
Or do they stray from the OP. into attacks against the poster...Iconoclast???

JONC has suggested that Iconoclast has:

made a mistake he is trying to wiggle out of,
took a verse out of context and ran with it
cannot admit the alleged mistake because of pride
has character issues
thinks the Spirit does not help believers
is like RC people viewing the pope
elevates man
is arrogant and has drifted from truth
the op negates the work of the Holy Spirit
is part of an intellectual movement that denies the power of the Spirit of God
has substituted the human wisdom for the power of God,
has confused milk of the word with the meat
you have got to admire the ability of certain posters to imagine all kinds of things until we actually see what has taken place. Lets set the record straight

Can the readers begin to see the source of this slanderous , misguided attack?
Lets investigate these claims in an effort to get the discussion back on track.

 

[Iconoclast]

The difference here is that all but you attribute Spiritual growth to God (to the Holy Spirit). I do not understand where or how you have come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is not instrumental in guiding the believer.

Maybe you should take note that you are standing alone here. I do not even think those you may look up to as guiding your faith would agree with your rejection that all spiritual truth to which we arrive is wrought of God.

Your rejection is so foreign to Christianity to me I am having difficulty reconciling it with Christianity period.

I just stopped and got online. I will show the truth now. Those who would supoort everything i am saying do not post here in large part to some of the shenanigans going on, but we will work through even this.

 

[agedman]

Jn 16:13 is not taken out of context. In context it was only spoken to the Apostles.
Some promises made to them were for all believers.
These sections of John were not.
We are not told to write scripture.
Your anecdotal experiences do not address the issue at hand.
I have no where said that scripture does not go beyond its original audience despite your wrong suggestion that is what is being said.

That you want that verse to be specific may be a problem.

Consider, we take certain NT books as Scripture that were written not by Apostles, but apostle (Paul) and by gentiles such as James, Titus, Mark.

They then would fall outside your view of what was specific to the Apostles, would it not?

 

[Iconoclast]

Jon C claims this now;

I am talking about the quote. It was mine. I did not quote John 16:13.

Really , you did not quote it? let's look , maybe i misread it;

you posted this;

The Holy Spirit guides us to all truth, @Iconoclast .

I responded then;
The Holy Spirit guided the Apostles into All Truth, not us.
We are given the Spirit to be able to welcome truth, but we do not have the same promise the Apostles had.

Even in that thread I clearly state the the Spirit allows all believers to welcome truth

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

I am simply saying that Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit

That is not the topic of the OP.

He is our Helper. He indwells us (not just the Apostles). And He is active - not some sort of door to theology but God Himself.

Can you quote me saying The Holy Spirit does not indwell all believers? IF YOU CAN, do so now

That you argue against this truth speaks volumes. To attribute your acceptance of ANY spiritual truth to any means except God is wrong.

Again, this is a fabrication from your own imagination. Can you quote me speaking against this? Do so now

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

The difference here is that all but you attribute Spiritual growth to God (to the Holy Spirit). I do not understand where or how you have come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is not instrumental in guiding the believer.

This falsehood has been addressed several times including the first 3 posts in the OP>

in post1]

Does the Spirit allow believers to welcome the truth of scripture? yes
Does the Spirit help us remember things, yes

However that is not what was being taught in Jn14, 15, 16.

from post3]

This again is spoken directly to the Apostles, not everyone.
We can learn things based on what they wrote, but not one of us, is "guided into all truth".

Every false teacher pulls verse 13 out of the gospel of jn and adds 1jn 2:27 to explain why they are guided into all truth...NOT


in post 5;
Certainly when we are quickened and indwelt by the Spirit we are able to welcome the scriptures as God's truth 1 cor .chapter 2.
Any truth that comes our way is by the Spirit opening us to understand the word of God.

in post 15; I repeated it again;
1 cor .chapter 2.
Any truth that comes our way is by the Spirit opening us to understand the word of God

JonC...did you not see this post?
If you did see it why do you post what you do?

 

[agedman]

Jon C claims this now;


Really , you did not quote it? let's look , maybe i misread it;

you posted this;


I responded then;
The Holy Spirit guided the Apostles into All Truth, not us.
We are given the Spirit to be able to welcome truth, but we do not have the same promise the Apostles had.

Even in that thread I clearly state the the Spirit allows all believers to welcome truth

So, then, we cannot take the letters of Paul, nor the book of Titus, James, Mark, nor that of Hebrews as other than confused because the Holy Spirit did not guide the writers as He did the Apostles?

Do you not see that holding such a view is undermining the authority of Scripture?

Was Paul, James, the writer of Hebrews, guided into all truth?

Of course, and we take of all they wrote that which is assigned as Scriptures.

 

[Iconoclast]

So, then, we cannot take the letters of Paul, nor the book of Titus, James, Mark, nor that of Hebrews as other than confused because the Holy Spirit did not guide the writers as He did the Apostles?

Do you not see that holding such a view is undermining the authority of Scripture?

Was Paul, James, the writer of Hebrews, guided into all truth?

Of course, and we take of all they wrote that which is assigned as Scriptures.

1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

4 To Titus,

 

[JonC]

I just stopped and got online. I will show the truth now. Those who would supoort everything i am saying do not post here in large part to some of the shenanigans going on, but we will work through even this.

Good - let's be clear:

My claim is that the believer is guided to all truth by the Holy Spirit in the context (the second sentence quoted in the OP) that we can arrive at no spiritual truth except it be of the Spirit. I offered Peter's confession as an example.

You replied that this is experiential on my part and error

All you need to do is show how you arrived at spiritual truth apart from God.

If you misspoke (perhaps misjudged my comment you quoted) then be man enough to admit the error. If not then explain how you gained spiritual knowledge apart from God.

Do you comprehend the issue?

 

[Iconoclast]

Good - let's be clear:

My claim is that the believer is guided to all truth by the Holy Spirit in the context (the second sentence quoted in the OP) that we can arrive at no spiritual truth except it be of the Spirit. I offered Peter's confession as an example.

You replied that this is experiential on my part and error

All you need to do is show how you arrived at spiritual truth apart from God.

If you misspoke (perhaps misjudged my comment you quoted) then be man enough to admit the error. If not then explain how you gained spiritual knowledge apart from God.

see post 46 among others I clearly posted from the start that no truth comes to anyone apart from the Spirit. I have never posted otherwise, so you active imagination and accusations should stop.

 

[Iconoclast]

The thread in posts 1-3 show how the Apostles were unique in the promises and gifts they had.

 

[agedman]

Guys, you need to dial it back.

Allow reasonable tones to moderate your posts.

 

[Iconoclast]

Guys, you need to dial it back.

Allow reasonable tones to moderate your posts.

yes, all the posts written in post 41 were directed at me, not the topic.

 

[agedman]

1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

4 To Titus,

Again, Paul was not an Apostle - not one of the twelve, but an apostle. That does not diminish his authority, but it does disprove your view.

Are you not a servant of God?

Are you not according to the faith given God's elect one who acknowledges "the truth which is after godliness."


If only Apostles were guided into all truth, that presents a very problematic position in relation to the greater NT Scriptures.

 

[JonC]

Guys, you need to dial it back.

Allow reasonable tones to moderate your posts.

I know....I'm just having a bit of fun at @Iconoclast 's expense.

He should have considered the quote in its context before putting it in the OP (he stepped in it so I played the game).

I know that @Iconoclast believes the Holy Spirit guides all believers in all spiritual truth (into which they are guided). And I think that he realizes his mistake (that we did not really disagree on this point as I was not quoting John).

He will not admit it, but I will. I was indulging in his error. @Iconoclast and I actually agree here and I've been intentionally speaking past him with the full knowledge that he would not admit the error and that I was speaking past him.

At least I'm man enough to admit it.

 

[JonC]

yes, all the posts written in post 41 were directed at me, not the topic.

Post #41 was a bit silly.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

Do you comprehend the issue?

Yes I do....as soon as you show any verse saying what Jn16:13 says to the Apostles, saying we have the same promise they had concerning all truth.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[JonC]

Basically the OP had a false start. It took the first sentence of a quote out of context of the rest of the quote and ran with it.

Insofar as @Iconoclast goes, I do not think that it was intentional. I suspect he glanced at the quote on another thread and took it wrong (took it as a reference to John...which would be an interesting topic).

It was a mistake any of us could have made (one in haste). I know that @Iconoclast believes we must rely on the Spirit and he knows (because he is not a foaming idiot) that I realize every believer is not guided into all the truth that there is to be known.

For my part, I was having fun with still-born thread. Sorry if anyone took it too seriously.

 

[agedman]

yes, all the posts written in post 41 were directed at me, not the topic.

I understand, and I am not saying that defense is not an appropriate response, I would just like the posts to be less dramatic.

Is there not a time to answer and a time not to respond?

I am the most often violator of Paul's statement in Corinthians, " ...is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,..."

Too often I myself am so caught in the winds of contrary and obstinacy that would seem posed to do nothing but bring distraction and ruin, that I also become what I would not if visiting face to face.

But good folks such as you and JonC are watchful that my exuberance does not overshadow "wisdom from above that is first pure, and peaceable..."

 

[JonC]

JonC,


Yes I do....as soon as you show any verse saying what Jn16:13 says to the Apostles, saying we have the same promise they had concerning all truth.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I never addressed John 16:13.

It was my quote in the OP that I was addressing (the one you denied....that we cannot know spiritual truth except by the Spirit of God).