Apostolic Uniqueness ....Guided into All Truth

[Iconoclast]

I know....I'm just having a bit of fun at @Iconoclast 's expense.

He should have considered the quote in its context before putting it in the OP (he stepped in it so I played the game).

I know that @Iconoclast believes the Holy Spirit guides all believers in all spiritual truth (into which they are guided). And I think that he realizes his mistake (that we did not really disagree on this point as I was not quoting John).

He will not admit it, but I will. I was indulging in his error. @Iconoclast and I actually agree here and I've been intentionally speaking past him with the full knowledge that he would not admit the error and that I was speaking past him.

At least I'm man enough to admit it.

Sure, as soon as you show any scripture that says what John 16:13 says, applied to all believers, where is the text that gives us the same promise?

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand, and I am not saying that defense is not an appropriate response, I would just like the posts to be less dramatic.

Is there not a time to answer and a time not to respond?

I am the most often violator of Paul's statement in Corinthians, " ...is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,..."

Too often I myself am so caught in the winds of contrary and obstinacy that would seem posed to do nothing but bring distraction and ruin, that I also become what I would not if visiting face to face.

But good folks such as you and JonC are watchful that my exuberance does not overshadow "wisdom from above that is first pure, and peaceable..."

I drive all day, the posts mount up. I listed what was posted, mostly off topic, I respond to what is posted.

 

[JonC]

Look, @Iconoclast , you took my quote out of context. But there may be discussion to be had.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is active in the life of the believer and that we cannot know any spiritual truth except by the Spirit's guidance (that all spiritual truth we enter in is of God).

Are you saying that this is false?

And if so, what is the scheme you propose?

 

[JonC]

I drive all day, the posts mount up. I listed what was posted, mostly off topic, I respond to what is posted.

I think (hope) this is what led you to take my comment (the quote in the OP) out of context. That is understandable (we've all done something similar, I'm sure).

If not, then please let's have a discussion of your view.

 

[Iconoclast]

I never addressed John 16:13.

It was my quote in the OP that I was addressing (the one you denied....that we cannot know spiritual truth except by the Spirit of God).

Can you quote where I denied the necessity of the ministry of the Spirit, contrary to what I posted?
I would be interested in seeing that quote.

 

[Iconoclast]

Look, @Iconoclast , you took my quote out of context. But there may be discussion to be had.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is active in the life of the believer and that we cannot know any spiritual truth except by the Spirit's guidance (that all spiritual truth we enter in is of God).

Are you saying that this is false?

And if so, what is the scheme you propose?

Are you reading my responses? I will post it here for the third time;

JonC, 1 cor .chapter 2.
Any truth that comes our way is by the Spirit opening us to understand the word of God.

in post 15; I repeated it again;
1 cor .chapter 2.
Any truth that comes our way is by the Spirit opening us to understand the word of God

JonC...did you not see this post?
If you did see it why do you post what you do?



This falsehood has been addressed several times including the first 3 posts in the OP>

in post1]

Does the Spirit allow believers to welcome the truth of scripture? yes
Does the Spirit help us remember things, yes

However that is not what was being taught in Jn14, 15, 16.

from post3]

This again is spoken directly to the Apostles, not everyone.
We can learn things based on what they wrote, but not one of us, is "guided into all truth".

Every false teacher pulls verse 13 out of the gospel of jn and adds 1jn 2:27 to explain why they are guided into all truth...NOT


in post 5;
Certainly when we are quickened and indwelt by the Spirit we are able to welcome the scriptures as God's truth 1 cor .chapter 2.
Any truth that comes our way is by the Spirit opening us to understand the word of God.

in post 15; I repeated it again;
1 cor .chapter 2.
Any truth that comes our way is by the Spirit opening us to understand the word of God

JonC...did you not see this post?
If you did see it why do you post what you do?

 

[JonC]

To the OP, @Iconoclast

This is the quote to which you objected:

"Don't discount the Holy Spirit... The Father and Son sent the Spirit as a "Helper"...to guide us.

The Holy Spirit guides us to all spiritual truth. We cannot claim to have arrived at spiritual truth in any other way. Even Peter's confession of Christ was of the Spirit."

Your objection is heresy. I think it is a mistake on your part (that you took it to be some sort of progressive revelation based on one sentence). If not, then it is heresy. We not arrive at spiritual truth via any means other than God. No effort of man (even Gill, Knox, or Calvin).

 

[Iconoclast]

Post #41 was a bit silly.

Well...it was your posts directed toward me. They do look quite foolish when lined up one after another

 

[JonC]

I'm going to keep restating the quote of the OP until you man up or the thread is closed.

I've admitted I've been playing games by taking advantage of your error. Are you going to keep trying to wiggle out of admitting the mistake or are we going to continue until we hit enough posts that the thread is closed?

In other words....is honor just a Southern thing?

 

[Iconoclast]

To the OP, @Iconoclast

This is the quote to which you objected:

"Don't discount the Holy Spirit... The Father and Son sent the Spirit as a "Helper"...to guide us.

The Holy Spirit guides us to all spiritual truth. We cannot claim to have arrived at spiritual truth in any other way. Even Peter's confession of Christ was of the Spirit."

Your objection is heresy. I think it is a mistake on your part (that you took it to be some sort of progressive revelation based on one sentence). If not, then it is heresy. We not arrive at spiritual truth via any means other than God. No effort of man (even Gill, Knox, or Calvin).

That is not what this OP. is about; Here it is;


Iconoclast said: ↑
The Holy Spirit guided the Apostles into All Truth, not us.
We are given the Spirit to be able to welcome truth, but we do not have the same promise the Apostles had.

 

[Iconoclast]

I did not author post # 41.

My comment has not changed - we can only come to spiritual truth by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

You're the one shifting and dodging. My comment stands from the other thread. It has not, and will not, change.

post 41...is your quotes, not mine

 

[JonC]

post 41...is your quotes, not mine

This is the quote you found in error:

Don't discount the Holy Spirit... The Father and Son sent the Spirit as a "Helper"...to guide us.

The Holy Spirit guides us to all spiritual truth. We cannot claim to have arrived at spiritual truth in any other way. Even Peter's confession of Christ was of the Spirit.

This was all I have to say and all I've said - ALL spiritual truth we hold is given by the Spirit of God.

Take it or leave it. Own up to your mistake or don't. I don't care.

I stand by the statement. We do not possess any spiritual truth except it be given us through the Spirit.

You can trust John Gill, John Knox, John Calvin, or John Lennon for all I care. But if it is spiritual truth you posses it comes from God. PERIOD.

 

[agedman]

Sure, as soon as you show any scripture that says what John 16:13 says, applied to all believers, where is the text that gives us the same promise?

You and I know that the "truth" did not suddenly leap into the minds of the Apostles, or any first century believer, but the guide was the Holy Spirit. And the work of the Holy Spirit was certainly started with the Apostles then an apostle, but was not limited to that select few, but spread to all assemblies, even to bringing the reformation, and on through this day as we work through Scriptures. He who knows all truth, guides the willing believers of this day into the truth of the Scriptures.

And although as Paul admitted we "see in a mirror dimly," there is coming that time in which we will "know fully as we are currently known" by the Holy Spirit.

I may be unable to find a single verse to refute your thinking, but by cutting off "all truth" as given only to Apostles, is certainly a violation of both the work of the Holy Spirit that indwells believers to this day, and the principle of why the Apostles were not given "all truth" at a single pouring out but were guided as circumstances developed. The same is found in every true believer seeking the truth. "You shall know the truth..." rings as the truth in every believer's life. For without such truth, we don't know the way, or the life nor the Father.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is the quote you found in error:

This was all I have to say and all I've said - ALL spiritual truth we hold is given by the Spirit of God.

Take it or leave it. Own up to your mistake or don't. I don't care.

I stand by the statement. We do not possess any spiritual truth except it be given us through the Spirit.

You can trust John Gill, John Knox, John Calvin, or John Lennon for all I care. But if it is spiritual truth you posses it comes from God. PERIOD.

That is not the topic of the OP.. The topic was the unique way the Apostles were to be guided into all truth. You mentioned the Apostles are no more saved that we are, remember? so you knew what i meant.

Now I clearly said all believers have the Spirit to welcome truth even though you denied it several times, that I already had posted that.

So now your explanation is you paraphrased the only verse in scripture that says guided into all truth??? what verse do you base your paraphrase on.?.

 

[Iconoclast]

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me" (John 14:6).

That is enough to defeat the argument of the OP.

This does not begin to address the OP.

 

[JonC]

Look, @Iconoclast , if you truly do not believe that the believer is dependent on the guidance of the Holy Spirit to arrive at spiritual truth then let's go from there.

If you do believe we are dependent on the Holy Spirit, then take responsibility for your mistake in taking one sentence out of context.

Either way - I'm calling on you to be a man of integrity. Either admit the mistake OR show how, except for God, you think we arrive at Spiritual truth.

It is really that simple. Speak plainly. Be a man of character.

 

[Jerome]

cutting off "all truth" as given only to Apostles, is certainly a violation of...the work of the Holy Spirit that indwells believers to this day

The precious Geneva Bible at I John 2:27, (the Anointing teacheth you of all things, and it is true) notes that the Anointing is "The Spirit which you have received of Christ, and which hath led you into all truth"

 

[Iconoclast]

Agedman
I have never said that believers are not able to welcome truth by the Ministry of the Spirit. Not once have I denied the ministry of the Spirit as 1 cor 2 is clear.

What I have posted is the promises were unique to the Apostles when after Jn 13 concluded Jesus public ministry. the promises of John 14, 15, 16 were to those who heard him with whom he promised the Spirit would
1] guide them into all truth, that is how we have a completed canon.

2] bring to their remembrance things they saw and heard having been with him from the beginning

3] show them...things to come

4] they could not bear all He had been teaching them, but He promised the Spirit would help them in particular.

We were not there, we did not audibly hear Jesus...they did.

 

[Jerome]

The verse in question is the first verse cited, for the 1689 London Baptist Confession's teaching that "our full persuasion, and assurance of the infallible Truth, and Divine Authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the Word in our Hearts."

And in Mark Dever's Baptist Foundations it is noted that in the preface to the Savoy Declaration John Owen also taught that the Spirit "gently leads into all truth and persuades men".

 

[Iconoclast]

And in Mark Dever's Baptist Foundations it is noted that in the preface to the Savoy Declaration John Owen also taught that the Spirit "gently leads into all truth and persuades men".

well...the Spirit does not lead into error.
Glad to see of your interest in the Puritans and reformers