What does "in the NT sense of the greater use of that time" mean? Please clarify that turn of phrase.
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Apostolic Uniqueness
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I agree. The 120 were present.
I disagree. There is no indication that "they" refers to only The Twelve.
Yes, the 120.
It is only natural that The Twelve, led by Peter, would step away from the 108, or so, other believers and address the accusations of the mockers in the crowd.
The content of Peter's sermon, the reference to Joel speaking of a time when both men and women will prophesy, clarifies the matter.
Thank you!
For some reason, I couldn't find it. I'll need to add James, the brother of Jesus, to the list of apostles outside of The Twelve.
There are three verses that indicate that Paul's specific field of ministry was with Gentiles: Romans 11:13, 1 Timothy 2:7, and 2 Timothy 1:11. However, note that two of these say that he was "an apostle" (1 Tim. 2:7 and 2 Tim. 1:11). What about Rom. 11:13, then? In the Greek, there is no article before "apostle," no matter what Greek text you use. Therefore, even according to that verse, Paul was not the sole or the designated apostle to the Gentiles.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
"They" = the 120 before Pentecost. They = the 12 at Pentecost. Notice.
“And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.” Acts 2:1 (KJV 1900)
Who are "they"?
“And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.” Acts 1:26 (KJV 1900)
You are forcing a subject change scripture doesn't support.
Besides, Jesus only told the 11 they would be baptiseed in the Holy Spirit.
“Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:” Acts 1:2 (KJV 1900)
“And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.” Acts 1:4–5 (KJV 1900)
The 120.
It is unclear how the process of casting lots worked. There could be 120 people casting lots or simply one person on behalf of all who were there.
There is no evidence that the women have left the Upper Room during the selection of Matthias, or that they were not involved in the process. Remember, women traveled with Jesus and The Twelve from the very beginning in Galilee, even though they are not often mentioned (Matthew 27:55; Luke 8:1-3, 23:49). The women were an integral part of the ministry of Jesus and were disciples. It is likely that women were part of the 72 disciples that Jesus appointed/commissioned and sent (as apostles) to the cities ahead of Him to announce the Kingdom of God had come, giving them the power to heal and exorcise demons (see Luke 10:1-20). So we have at least 60 other commissioned apostles who were part of the ministry of Jesus, prior to the crucifixion. I would expect that most, if not all of them, were in the Upper Room.
Not necessarily. Only if you believe that the 72 Jesus commissioned and sent were not apostles, even though they meet the definition of the term.
Since Jesus sent out 72 apostles in Luke 10, He was communicating with more than 11.
Yes, the 120 (men and women) were baptized with the Holy Spirit at that time. And Christians of every age since that time are baptized with the Holy Spirit. In fact, we are commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18) to have power to live righteously.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Jesus told the 11 they would be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Not the 120. Besides, how would anyone know what was being said if 120 started speaking?
“But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;” Acts 2:14–16 (KJV 1900)
You cannot understand Acts unless you understand this.
The only greater Apostle that we are aware of, as he was the one that wrote Romans and Galatians to us!
Apostles who had inspiration applied to their theology, and who were gifted with sign gifts personally!
Frankly, how would anyone understand if 11 were speaking all at once in a normal situation?
Remember, the miracle of Pentecost seems to be a miracle of hearing as well. Apparently the ones to whom the Spirit was speaking heard the praise of God in the language of their hearts, while others, scornful people, apparently heard some sort of babbling and scoffed that the 120 were drunk on cheap wine.
Read the last sentence of that quote of Peter. The prophecy of Joel that he quotes in the very next verse reads this way:
‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters will prophesy,
And your young men will see visions,
And your old men will have dreams;
And even on My male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
And they will prophesy.
‘That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters will prophesy,
And your young men will see visions,
And your old men will have dreams;
And even on My male and female servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
And they will prophesy.
The prophecy of Joel would not be fulfilled unless there were men AND women prophesying.
I agree. That's why I am belaboring this.
There is a lot of resistance to the idea that the Holy Spirit came upon all 120 for a number of reasons, two of which are to (1) claim that tongue speaking was only done by the apostles, which ignores the tongues issues in 1 Corinthians; and (2) because many believe that God would not allow a woman to prophesy, even though we see that throughout the New Testament.
Your term "greater apostle" is completely unbiblical. You can refer to The Twelve, or you can refer to the New Testament apostles, but there are no "greater" or "lesser" apostles.
Um, you are aware that Paul wrote more than that, right?
"Inspiration applied to their theology?" That's a strange turn of phrase. Are you trying to say that when they taught, they were supernaturally free from error?
Everyone with whom the manifestations of the Holy Spirit work through experiences it personally. And yet AGAIN, signs/manifestations followed many other disciples who were NOT apostles.
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
What you and Pentecostals are missing is that All Believers received the gift of the Holy Spirit just like today. But only the 12 received the baptism with signs and wonders. Only they could pass the Baptism to others through the laying on of their hands. But those recipients could not pass it on to others. Why don't we see the signs and wonders today? Because they ended with the apostles.
I am not a Pentecostal, nor have I consulted with Pentecostal theology. I'm getting this straight from the Bible.
I agree, with the exception of 11 of The Twelve. They received the Holy Spirit directly from the breath of Jesus in some way (see John 20:22).
That simply doesn't hold up. I can't help but notice that you are simply repeating your assertions instead of interacting with the scripture I have cited.
False. There was no laying on of hands at Cornelius' home (Acts 10:44-46). Your premise doesn't hold up at all. There was a different reason the Spirit waited for the Samaritans and the disciples of John to receive the Spirit by the laying on of hands. Remember, the Spirit is a PERSON, not an impersonal force that works according to certain rules.
Please cite scripture for this assertion. This is the second time I have made this specific request.
False presupposition. We do see manifestations of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:7-11) today. The manifestations of the Spirit cannot be conjured up and they are tied specifically to the will of God for the moment. The disciple who is used of God for the manifestation does not have access to that manifestation to use outside the will of God.
You have not demonstrated this at all.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You are Quite Pentecostal in your interpretation.
there are none today who would be numbered among greater Apostles, last one called as such was Paul, and last one to live was john!
I think it's important here to point out that there is an entirely different theological basis for the Charismatic "apostle" than what Baptist Believer and I are touting here. The Charismatic view of "apostle" is that it was an authoritative, miracle-working office that is now back due to what is called the "manifest sons of God" teaching, part of the "Latter Rain" theology. That teaching is all about the miracles and the authority, supposedly come back now in the last days.
That is not at all what I believe. Once again, going by how apostleship is taught in Acts & the epistles, it is a gifting (I do not say "office") for people who God calls to be cross-cultural, soul-winning, church-planting missionaries. What are the signs of such missionaries? Not miracles, something which I debunked already. The signs of an apostle are souls saved cross-culturally. Note that Paul clearly claimed this:
"If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord" (1 Cor. 9:2).
I know a man who has been a "missionary" to an Asian country, but as far as I know has never seen a single soul saved there. His independent Baptist mission board dropped him because of this. Why? He didn't show the signs of a missionary/apostle, souls saved.
For my part, I can tell of many saved in Japan during our 30 years there. In fact I won Japanese to Christ even before we went there. I'll attach a photo here of a baptism I did of a yakuza gangster who had sold drugs, done scams, beat up people, and been to prison three times. God's power saved him! That's the true meaning of apostleship.
That is not at all what I believe. Once again, going by how apostleship is taught in Acts & the epistles, it is a gifting (I do not say "office") for people who God calls to be cross-cultural, soul-winning, church-planting missionaries. What are the signs of such missionaries? Not miracles, something which I debunked already. The signs of an apostle are souls saved cross-culturally. Note that Paul clearly claimed this:
"If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord" (1 Cor. 9:2).
I know a man who has been a "missionary" to an Asian country, but as far as I know has never seen a single soul saved there. His independent Baptist mission board dropped him because of this. Why? He didn't show the signs of a missionary/apostle, souls saved.
For my part, I can tell of many saved in Japan during our 30 years there. In fact I won Japanese to Christ even before we went there. I'll attach a photo here of a baptism I did of a yakuza gangster who had sold drugs, done scams, beat up people, and been to prison three times. God's power saved him! That's the true meaning of apostleship.
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Even though Paul saw Himself to being the Apostle to the Gentiles in same fashion as peter was to the Jews?
there is still a difference though between apostles as missionaries today and those who did signs and wonders and wrote inspired texts to us, as the foundation of NT theology built upon therm!
Perhaps the similarity is that Pentecostals and I are both continuationists.
I have never studied Pentecostal theology.
What is the biblical reference for Paul being called a "greater Apostle."
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