1689Dave
Well-Known Member
But scripture does not support it. Trace the history of American Pentecostalism and it gets even worse.
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Apostolic Uniqueness
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Please show me scripture for that, unless your argument is the same one you have been repeating that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was only for The Twelve. That has been refuted.
What I am talking about has nothing to do with American Pentecostalism. Just because a movement exists that makes certain similar claims (and many other claims I don't make), doesn't mean my claims are false.
I believe that God is Triune, but that doesn't make me a Roman Catholic.
I believe that there are apostles and prophets today, but that doesn't make me a Mormon.
I believe in believer's baptism, but that doesn't make me a member of the Christ of Christ.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
It's a long study. But simply stated points rule out today's charismatic movement as being valid. Another point is that Paul said "we know in part" but when the perfect comes we shall see clearly, face to face". What does this mean? Tongues and prophecy only gave limited insight. But he says scripture thoroughly equips us. Scripture is the "perfect" (complete) that replaced tongues.
How many times do I have to say that the signs and wonders were secondary, they were not essential to apostleship?? The point of apostleship was not signs and wonders, but souls saved and churches planted.
By this constant emphasis on "signs and wonders," you are aligning yourself with the Charismatic "signs and wonders" missiology, which says that signs and wonders are the path to getting people saved. This is totally unbiblical. The Gospel gets people saved when it is proclaimed, not signs and wonders, which simply ratify the message.
Peter got the Gospel started to both Jews and Gentiles. Paul did not refer to himself as "the Apostle to the Gentiles" in the Greek, but "an apostle to the Gentiles." Did you not see my post on that? The KJV got it wrong in Romans 11:13. There is no article before the word "apostle" in the Greek.
Here is part of a missiology lecture of mine on the great dangers of Charismatic missiology. They get the cart before the horse, putting the emphasis on physical miracles rather than the awesome miracles of souls being saved. Note that the footnotes come at the bottom.
III. Power Evangelism (Signs and Wonders)
A. This philosophy was promoted by John Wimber of Fuller Theological Seminary (1924-2009). It is a Charismatic Third Wave perspective, and thus should be approached with extreme caution by the missionary.
B. Donald McGavran’s influential book on missiology, The Bridges of God, was used to launch the Church Growth Movement. Unfortunately, that movement has been hijacked by the Signs and Wonders advocates.
C. “My observation of the Scriptures has been that when there are signs and wonders accompanying the preaching of the Word they are there not because anyone sought those kinds of things or that they were meant to be expected as an ordinary part of the gospel witness. Rather it was something that was bestowed upon the Christians involved because God in His wisdom viewed those circumstances as needing that kind of thing to make the Word compelling.” [1]
D. For this movement, the means—miracles—can easily become the goal rather than the winning of lost souls to Christ. Remember that the Word is confirmed by “signs following” it, rather than preceding it (Mark 16:20). (Thanks to Greg Kouk’s article for this insight.) Therefore, the advocates of this movement often end up having miracle meetings rather than evangelistic meetings.
E. Characteristics of the signs and wonders approach.
1. The ostensible goal is to use miracles to open the door to the Gospel. However, this approach ignores dispensational truth, such as the fact that since the canon of Scripture is complete we have no pressing need to seek miracles. The Bible is an incredibly powerful force for reaching the lost (Heb. 4:12). If miracles in answer to prayer occur, they are secondary to the power of the Gospel message (Rom. 1:16).
2. “Third wave-type power encounter usually goes beyond demonstrating the power of the true God in the context of false gods. To engage in Christian ministry itself is to engage in spiritual warfare, and power encounter is an inherent part of it. Included are such supernatural phenomena as healing the sick, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, exorcising demons and territorial spirits, neutralizing poisonous bites, overcoming Satanic attacks of various kinds, and even raising the dead.” [2]
3. Therefore, the physical (healing, speaking in tongues, etc.), begins to take precedence over the spiritual (winning souls, prayer, hearing the Word of God).
4. It is often promoted by anecdotes about miracles on the mission fields of the world rather than well-documented miracles.
5. Often the Word of God takes a second place to the efforts to reach a people group through miracles. Bible translation then becomes secondary.
F. An unfortunate side effect of this movement is the proliferation of Charismatic “word of faith” missions, churches and influences in Africa. This has done huge damage to true Christianity in Africa and elsewhere.
[1] Greg Kouk, “Signs and Wonders: The Dark Side,” at Article Not Available. Accessed on July 30, 2019.
[2] David Hesselgrave, Paradigms in Conflict (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 2005), 177. This book has a good chapter on this movement.
III. Power Evangelism (Signs and Wonders)
A. This philosophy was promoted by John Wimber of Fuller Theological Seminary (1924-2009). It is a Charismatic Third Wave perspective, and thus should be approached with extreme caution by the missionary.
B. Donald McGavran’s influential book on missiology, The Bridges of God, was used to launch the Church Growth Movement. Unfortunately, that movement has been hijacked by the Signs and Wonders advocates.
C. “My observation of the Scriptures has been that when there are signs and wonders accompanying the preaching of the Word they are there not because anyone sought those kinds of things or that they were meant to be expected as an ordinary part of the gospel witness. Rather it was something that was bestowed upon the Christians involved because God in His wisdom viewed those circumstances as needing that kind of thing to make the Word compelling.” [1]
D. For this movement, the means—miracles—can easily become the goal rather than the winning of lost souls to Christ. Remember that the Word is confirmed by “signs following” it, rather than preceding it (Mark 16:20). (Thanks to Greg Kouk’s article for this insight.) Therefore, the advocates of this movement often end up having miracle meetings rather than evangelistic meetings.
E. Characteristics of the signs and wonders approach.
1. The ostensible goal is to use miracles to open the door to the Gospel. However, this approach ignores dispensational truth, such as the fact that since the canon of Scripture is complete we have no pressing need to seek miracles. The Bible is an incredibly powerful force for reaching the lost (Heb. 4:12). If miracles in answer to prayer occur, they are secondary to the power of the Gospel message (Rom. 1:16).
2. “Third wave-type power encounter usually goes beyond demonstrating the power of the true God in the context of false gods. To engage in Christian ministry itself is to engage in spiritual warfare, and power encounter is an inherent part of it. Included are such supernatural phenomena as healing the sick, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, exorcising demons and territorial spirits, neutralizing poisonous bites, overcoming Satanic attacks of various kinds, and even raising the dead.” [2]
3. Therefore, the physical (healing, speaking in tongues, etc.), begins to take precedence over the spiritual (winning souls, prayer, hearing the Word of God).
4. It is often promoted by anecdotes about miracles on the mission fields of the world rather than well-documented miracles.
5. Often the Word of God takes a second place to the efforts to reach a people group through miracles. Bible translation then becomes secondary.
F. An unfortunate side effect of this movement is the proliferation of Charismatic “word of faith” missions, churches and influences in Africa. This has done huge damage to true Christianity in Africa and elsewhere.
[1] Greg Kouk, “Signs and Wonders: The Dark Side,” at Article Not Available. Accessed on July 30, 2019.
[2] David Hesselgrave, Paradigms in Conflict (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 2005), 177. This book has a good chapter on this movement.
Paul was born out of season, was the last called one!
In the same sense they hold with it, as continual revelations and modern day signs and wonders and apostles and prophets>
Paul was to the Gentile world what the 12 Apostles had been to Israel!
Not NT Apostles nor OT prophets today....
And Pentecostal Movement came at Azusa 1906. and yet description of what happened there very demonic!
I am saying that signs and wonders were given to thje Apostles of Lord Jesus to validate his mission and person, and any claiming to be such today in the 12 Apostle sense must have them!
If we can agree that modern day Apostles would be missionaries, and that they do not have additional revelations from God, nor do signs and wonders, but do soul winning and plant churches, we are in full agreement!
I agree. I do believe the canon is closed, so no modern Christian can add to Scripture. I do not believe that anyone nowadays has the power to perform miracles. Miracles can happen, but by prayer, not like the modern Charismatic movement thinks. And just like the Biblical apostle, the modern missionary wins souls and plants churches cross culturally.
I am not attempting to validate the modern charismatic movement. I have no stake or interest in that. I am simply trying to be faithful to the biblical text.
Where does Paul say that “scripture thoroughly equips us” in this context?
The Bible tells us what is essential for us to know, but it does not give us complete knowledge.
Sorry, I can’t agree at all. I have heard that explanation for 40 years and it still makes no sense and does not seem to have any biblical merit.
The “complete” that comes is the fullness of the Kingdom, when Jesus sets everything right and we know as we are known.
I think by this turn of phrase you are misquoting 1 Corinthians 15:8:
...and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.
Is that correct?
AGAIN, I haven’t done any serious study of Pentecostal theology, but I doubt I hold similar viewpoints.
I believe that God speaks to His people – Jesus taught that – and that there are missionaries (aka, apostles) and prophets gifted to the church. I also believe that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit occur according to the will and good pleasure of God, but those gifts are situational and momentary. It is simply the work of God through a willing person for special needs. As I have explained several times before, I most frequently experience manifestations of the Holy Spirit when I am dealing with people in crisis. It is discreet and effective, and no one confuses it for an innate power/gift that I have.
False.
True.
Do you realize that ‘discerning of spirits’ is one of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit (what you keep calling, the “sign gifts”)?
Great, so we are now in full agreement on this important issue!
yes, as Paul was confirming that he was as one of the 12. but out of time!
Much and most of what passes as being of the Holy Spirit om modern day charismatic is doctrines of demons, repackaged under the guise of "apostles and prophets"!
Thank you for this helpful post.
This is my overall concern as viewed in scripture.
Acts2
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
acts3
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
Acts4:
4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
This is the pattern of the book of Acts. the Apostolic word was being preached and believed. God performed signs to accompany the Apostolic preaching to credential them as His spokesman. The word was believed as the Spirit granted repentance and faith to the elect. The signs were said to be the "signs of an Apostle"
Heb2:
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing
them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
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