Are all of God's Ten Commandments still valid?

[BobRyan]

the 2 questions which must be answered are:

1) what does it mean that the law of God is written on our hearts?

2) how does God write his laws on our hearts?

Read the entirety of 6:13-11:40. Christ has made the first covenant obsolete (Heb 8:13). Paul also said the Christ abolished the Law with its commandments and ordinances (Eph 2:15), and that the old covenant has been set aside (2Cor 3:11)

Hebrews 10:14 tells us that Jesus Christ has FOREVER PERFECTED those who are sanctified. His blood REMOVES sin, which is something the blood of bulls and goats could never do (Heb 10:11), and that the Law was a shadow of things to come.

Heb 8:1 quotes the prophecy " the days are coming when I will establish a new covenant....will write My laws on the hearts."

We are also told of these days that are coming "I will pour out My Spirit"

Righteousness comes from being washed by the blood of Christ, not by observing the Law.

Moses and Elijah live before the time of the Jeremiah - and they stand "with Christ" in Matt 17 before the cross.

Not because they never sinned - but because they are all saved under the "one gospel" of Gal 1:6-11 that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7.

As Paul says in Heb 4 "The Gospel was preached to us just was it was to them also"

Saved by Grace through faith - the one gospel in Both OT and NT.

But under the Gospel the Ten Commandments do not remain external - they are place internally on the heart - by the work of the Holy Spirit - under the New Birth that Christ says is known to all the teacher's in Israel even before the cross -- in John 3.

The old covenant made with the nation - was broken - but individuals like David, Solomon, Samuel, Hezekiah, Moses, Elijah are saved within that system - by the Gospel.

The ceremonial sacrifices end as Hebrews 10 points out - but that does not mean it is ok to take God's name in vain or to worship idols or as James 2 points out - to break any of the Ten commandments.

This may help us all understand why even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and Matthew Henry, and D.L. Moody are so quick to admit that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God binding on all mankind from the days of Adam - to this very day.

 

[BobRyan]

Greetings BobRyan,

Jesus is the true Sabbath:
Matthew 11:28-30 (KJV): 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Also a careful consideration of Hebrews 4 expands the true understanding of the Sabbath question, showing that the true rest and the subject of the Sabbath is much wider than the narrow constrict imposed by the SDAs. I do not believe in “Sunday keeping” and this expression is used by SDAs to add weight and justify their position. The question is not the Seventh Day versus the "pro Sunday" advocates.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hi Trevor -

The "Baptist Confession of Faith" - the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- "D.L. Moody" --- "Matthew Henry" are in the SDA sources you seem to suppose on that response, when they affirm that the Sabbath Commandment is still binding to this very day and compels us to honor a weekly day of worship.

They all affirm that all TEN of the Ten commandments are included in the moral law of God that is binding on all mankind - even the saints from the days of Adam to this very day.

That is not an "SDA" statement - it is their own.

Why do they insist on this? Maybe it is because they know that in Jer 31:31-33 "The LAW of God is written on the heart" under the new Covenant and that this Law is the one that Jeremiah knew about - the one his contemporary readers knew about.

The Sabbath was "made for mankind - not mankind made for the Sabbath" according to Christ in Mark 2:27 - and this refers to the Gen 1:2-2:3 creation week where both are made.

So when we see in Is 66:23 that even into the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL Mankind come before Me to bow down and worship"

In Matt 11 Christ did not abolish the 4th commandment. In fact Christ repeatedly challenges even one of his accusers to find a single commandment that he has nullified.

In Matt 5 Christ specifically condemns any teaching claiming that He has come to set aside or nullify the Law of God.

in Rom 3:31 Paul specifically addresses the question "do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God"

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I don’t believe that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God, but that they are commands to Israel under the Old Covenant that represent the moral law of God. They are applicable to believers in that they are fulfilled if one obediently in Christ loves God with all of their heart, soul and strength…and their neighbors as themselves.

In Jer 31:31-33 and in Hebrews 8 the New Covenant is a promise to Israel and Judah according to the text. Do you use this to prove that no gentile is saved under the New Covenant? I myself have never seen anyone do it.

In Mark 2:27 the Sabbath "made for mankind"

In Is 66:23 regarding the Sabbath "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down and worship"

 

[BobRyan]

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Three points

Point 1.
The "Shadow Sabbaths" are listed as the annual Sabbaths in Lev 23 that are based in animal sacrifices and point forward to the coming of Christ -- given at mount Sinai as "shadows" of things to come. This does not include the creation week Sabbath.


But the 7th day Sabbath is not only commandment in Ex 16 before the Sinai event of the giving of the TEN commandments - but also
in Ex 20:11 it points us back to the creation event - the sanctified, blessed holy day that was made THEN as the 7th day calling it "the Sabbath"
"11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


Rev 14:7
7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

Gen 2
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Point 2

In Matt 7 before the cross with all laws in full force Christ teaches the Jews "Judge not that you be not judged" - in Col 2 you have the same teaching. The Matt 7 statement did not abolish the LAW of God and neither does that same command given in Col 2.


Point 3
In Matt 12 the Jews repeatedly accuse Christ of breaking the 7th day Sabbath - and in Matt 12:7 He declares that both He and his disciples are innocent of doing such a thing. In Matt 5 you see the same argument from Christ saying that He is perfectly complying with the LAW of God. In Matt 28 in the great commission the disciples are commanded to go out and teach others what Christ taught them - so it is no surprise that in Col 2 the Christian may well be accused by the Jew of the same false charges for Sabbath breaking. I would not rule that out - but Paul does not seem to focus on it with his statement that these are only the 'shadow' Sabbaths that point forward to the Messiah - and not the memorial Sabbath - a memorial of Creation week.

 

[BobRyan]

You're trying to tie a millstone around their necks. You esteem one day above the others, you are a weaker brother according to Paul in Romans 14.

In Romans 14 Paul says that one man is strong in faith and eats all things while another who is weaker eats only vegetables .. in the same one that one man "esteems" or observes one day ABOVE the others while another man (the weaker?) observes or esteems ALL the holy days.

It is a reference to the holy days listed in Lev 23 some keep them all and some keep one above the others - neither observance is called 'weaker' in Romans 14 - but if we use the same format as in the case of eating - then the second case is the weaker in both cases. Which means that the one that observes all the holy days is the "weaker" according to that text -- if any of the two is to be said to be weaker.

You are obligated by scripture to wallow in your weakness by yourself,

1. you say this in response to my point that Matthew Henry, the "Baptist Confession of Faith", C.H. Spurgeon, the "Westminster Confession of Faith", D.L. Moody et al... are in agreement with me on the continued authority of all TEN of the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God written on the heart.

I find you logic illusive when you address this point where you appear to differ with all those groups while I actually agree with 6 of their 7 points, as though this is me 'by myself'

Are reading the OP??

2. You say this about a chapter that explicitly condemns anyone doing what you are trying to do - which is to condemn one of the two practices listed for observance. you place the wrong concept into the day being observed - (never called the Sabbath so you insert it) - but then you go on to condemn it - the very thing the chapter says not to do. By your own words you condemn your own action.

WRONG !!
Romans 6 is in the context of PHYSICAL death, a continuation of the previous chapter, which begins "HAVING BEEN justified"

Turns out - that is false.

in Romans 6 we have eternal life contrasted to the 2nd death - and the wages of sin.

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

Romans 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal lifein Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Here we go again......................................

We shall always have the SDAs with us ... like we shall the 'Jesus is my Sabbatists', the 'Colossians Ceremonialists', and the 'Here we go again crooners'.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

... and Deo volente, GE, for as long as I shall live ...

 

[Getting it Right]

Ten Commandments

I don’t believe that the Ten Commandments are the moral law of God, but that they are commands to Israel under the Old Covenant that represent the moral law of God. They are applicable to believers in that they are fulfilled if one obediently in Christ loves God with all of their heart, soul and strength…and their neighbors as themselves.

Yes, commands to Israel to demonstrate to them how far they had fallen from God's grace in the Covenant with Abram.

No, they are fulfilled in Jesus. His sacrifice met the obligations of any of the commands contained in the Hebrew Bible, establishing Grace through Faith, THE Gift (not "a" gift). We have no strength in and of ourselves. It is only He who provides, protects and sustains, once the individual prompted by the Holy Spirit confesses Jesus as Savior, as in Romans 10:8-13.

:applause:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Word of God --- God's Law -- is unambiguous: The Law is not for the Jews or for Christians, but "for the transgressor". There is no Israelite like there is no Christian, who is not a transgressor of the Law of God -- that is, of the Word of God -- that means, who is not a sinner because he transgresses against Christ, God's Word.

Speaking a word against the Holy Spirit first and foremost is to speak a word against Jesus Christ; We are sinners and transgressors of God's Law because we do not believe in HIM ... because we disobey JESUS ... because we do NOT LOVE Christ the Saviour.

There is no other sin than the sin against the Son of God. It was MAN'S SIN which killed Christ.

All religions define sin as sin against the 'Spirit-God'. But no religion crucified a Spirit-God ever. They all constantly crucify Christ the Lord of the Sabbath anew—Sabbatharians no different than Sunday worshippers.

Sin is transgressing against Jesus Christ : to hate Him; to deny Him; to be ashamed of Him; to be afraid to be His disciple and follower—afraid, ashamed and hating to go to Church on the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD even or to respect it because Christ rose from the dead on it for our salvation. We Christians are the BIG sinners because at the first sign of danger to ourselves, we desert, deny and betray and crucify Christ anew. Why would we bother to worship and honour Him while and with honouring His Holy Day if we have stripped it of every trait of mercy, grace and love?

 

[Getting it Right]

There is no other sin than the sin against the Son of God. It was MAN'S SIN which killed Christ.

Dare we say He wasn't "killed," (murdered)? Yes, we dare say it. He gave His life an atonement for sin. No one "killed" Him.

Sin is transgressing against Jesus Christ : to hate Him; to deny Him; to be ashamed of Him; to be afraid to be His disciple and follower

Yes, that's the mark of someone who has never been saved.

hating to go to Church .... desert, deny and betray ....

Yes, that's we Christians. Thank God for 1 John 1:9.

:applause:

 

[BobRyan]

I am fully convinced that -

1. The Bible is correct in calling the Commandments 'the Word of God"

Bible texts both NT and OT about God's Commandments - Showing that the TEN Commandments are assigned the title "in scripture" as being "Commandments of God" -- and as also being "The Word of God"

10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10


2. Christ knows exactly what He is talking about when contrasting the "words of Moses" with the traditions of man


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Note that in 1John 5 - John contrasts "LOVE", to the Commandments of God. He does not say "By this we know that we Love God -- if we Love God".

Rather John points to obedience to the WORD of God "the Commandments of God" as the sign that we truly to LOVE God. Being at war against his Word is not such a great sign of "loving God" as some had perhaps imagined.



3. John is entirely correct here -

1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

I appreciate your response. My position is not to defend those that in some way endorse the Sabbath Law from the 10 Commandments and who then possibly incorrectly apply this Law to Sunday Keeping. My position is to determine whether the Apostles taught that after Christ’s resurrection the newly converted Gentile believers, for example Gentiles amongst the Galatians, needed to keep the Sabbath Law. Much could be discussed on this subject by considering Paul’s Letter to the Galatians. If there was an endorsement of Sabbath Keeping, then it could be expected to be in the Letter to the Galatians, because the subject of this Letter is whether the Gentiles needed to keep the Law of Moses. Where then is Sabbath Keeping taught as necessary in the Letter to the Galatians?

Yes I accept that both Jew and Gentile will keep some form of Sabbath during the 1000 years when Christ reigns upon the earth from his throne in Jerusalem. What I find lacking in the NT is any direct reference for the need of Gentiles to keep this Law. The next place that I would look is Acts 15 where the requirements of the Law of Moses were again discussed. Again the fact that it is not mentioned in Acts 15 is almost sufficient proof to my mind that the Sabbath was not mandatory.

You are correct that what Jesus said in Matthew 11 did not abolish the 4th Commandment. After he spoke these words the Jewish believers were still under the Law of Moses. But this does not prove that Gentiles who were not under the Law needed to have the Sabbath imposed upon them after accepting Christ. Matthew 11 gives a wider perspective and meaning on the subject of the Sabbath, that is, concerning the true rest rather than the shadow.

I mentioned Hebrews 4 because the writer gives a more extensive view on the Sabbath. The following appears to be a summary of what he has stated in Hebrews 3 and 4:
Hebrews 4:8-10 (KJV): 8 For if Jesus (Joshua) had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Paul integrates his Sabbath consideration with the rest under Joshua (or the failure to attain this rest), then he speaks of a future rest (which I claim is the 1000 years, not the weekly Sabbath). He also speaks of an entering into present rest (and I claim this is parallel with Christ’s words in Matthew 11:28-30, not the keeping of the Sabbath on the 7th day of each week). This is then coupled with ceasing from our own works (and I claim this is not ceasing from six days of labour, but ceasing from the works of sin every day). And finally he links all of this with the Six Days of Creation and God resting of the Seventh Day. This then is a brief summary of the teaching of the Sabbath, and teaches that the Sabbath Law as commanded to Israel in the Ten Commandments is only a small portion of the overall teaching on the Sabbath. Hence Sabbath keeping is not binding on the Gentile believer in this present era.

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God"

When we read in the NT of the need to keep the Commandments, is this referring to the 10 Commandments, or to the whole teaching of Christ and the Apostles regarding the way of life in Christ? Jesus explained and expanded some of the 10 Commandments in Matthew, such as “Thou shalt not kill”, cutting right to the heart of man’s motives and thoughts and reactions to circumstances. He thus shows that the 10 Commandments are inadequate as a rule of life, by comparison to the way of life in Christ. Also careful thought and heart searching must accompany an understanding of Paul’s exposition surrounding the Commandment “Thou shalt not covet” in Romans 7, especially Paul’s failure to keep this Law, and the Law’s awakening in him of the sin impulse. The Law could not and did not bring righteousness, but condemned the sinner. Thus the way of life of the Gentile believer in Christ requires a greater understanding and practice of the teaching surrounding the Sabbath than was usually practiced by most Jews under the Law of Moses.

Romans 8:1-3 (KJV): 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (or sin’s flesh), and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Sabbath Keeping is clinging to the shadow, while the way of life in Christ is the true Sabbath, the true rest.

I am interested Bob if your enthusiasm for often discussing and supporting the Sabbath question is based upon your endorsement of the End-Time Scenario or Controversy teachings in such writings as “The Great Controversy” by Ellen G White Chapter 36 “The Impending Conflict” and “National Sunday Law – Forces unite amid stupendous crisis …” by A. Jan Marcussen. I personally cannot see these predictions as Bible based. Speaking also in practical terms, these scenarios seem improbable in this world with atheism and also many different religions not based on the Bible.

My understanding of the latter day crisis is shown in Psalm 2, Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Ezekiel 38, Daniel 2, 11:40-45, Zechariah 14 and many similar prophecies. The present events of the world seem to be building up to the fulfillment of these prophecies. All of these Scriptures when properly read are outside the SDA view of prophecy and the outcome will be the Kingdom of God upon the earth for 1000 years, not the burning and desolation of the earth because people do not keep the Sabbath as taught by the SDAs.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn View Post
There is no other sin than the sin against the Son of God. It was MAN'S SIN which killed Christ.
Dare we say He wasn't "killed," (murdered)? Yes, we dare say it. He gave His life an atonement for sin. No one "killed" Him.

Quote:

Sin is transgressing against Jesus Christ : to hate Him; to deny Him; to be ashamed of Him; to be afraid to be His disciple and follower
Yes, that's the mark of someone who has never been saved.

Quote:

hating to go to Church .... desert, deny and betray ....
Yes, that's we Christians. Thank God for 1 John 1:9.

<<hating to go to Church>> ... God will be the Judge of that.

In the meantime ...
<<<that's the mark of someone who has never been saved>>> ...
No! That's the mark of EVERY man for as long as he may live. "EVERY man is under the Law for as long as he lives" because EVERYONE is a sinner for as long as he lives. There are only lost sinners and forgiven and saved sinners.
Christ came not to heal the healthy, but the sick. Thank God; now I also am assured of a better hope.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

When we read in the NT of the need to keep the Commandments, is this referring to the 10 Commandments, or to the whole teaching of Christ and the Apostles regarding the way of life in Christ?

<<the need to keep the Commandments>> --- whether <<the 10 Commandments, or the whole teaching of Christ>> -- what's the difference?!

Anyway, it's a much bigger impossibility to <<keep ... the whole teaching of Christ and the Apostles regarding the way of life in Christ>> than <<to keep the 10 Commandments>>.

The TC say you shall not kill; Jesus Christ's commandment says that when you hate someone, you have committed murder.

ALL man's 'righteousness', says the Word of God -- Jesus Christ, is filthy rags. If our righteousness be not "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS", we simply don't have righteousness. If we are not accepted "IN THE SON", we are in ourselves rejected.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I personally cannot see these predictions as Bible based. Speaking also in practical terms, these scenarios seem improbable in this world with atheism and also many different religions not based on the Bible.

Your as well as Bob's problem is you both are WAY BEHIND the times.

The Bible which you both CONCERNING THE SABBATH DAY accept as God's Word -- <<speaking in practical terms>> is nothing short of anti-Christ's word ALREADY.

Dream on... you won't even be surprised or wake up when watching your apocalyptic visions come true maybe one day. Like it at present has passed you by unnoticed, the last day will turn upon you and destroy you and your prophecies with you, sooner than could be imagined.

 

[Getting it Right]

Sin

Once we believe, our status can no longer be "sinner." We cannot deny His sacrifice. Yes, I sin. We all sin. Daily. However, that is not our status before God. We are saved and secure for all eternity by / in His Righteousness, free from hearing Jesus say, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." Rather, in response to the call of the Holy Spirit, we have confessed Romans 10:8-13, and look forward to entering His Heavenly Presence.

It is terrible, ugly, that we Christians resort to sin (the sinful, evil nature) in order to satisfy a desire, or lust, or to "get along" with others..... but once we are saved, we are always saved. HE will not be denied. We are occupied by our NEW, Spiritual Nature, that most Holy Spirit that now dwells in each of us, ready and willing to provide the Whole Armor of God when the sinful, evil nature attacks. We just have to get out of the way.

HE has provided a path to restoration of fellowship in 1 John 1:9. The latter has nothing to do with one's becoming "lost" again. It has nothing to do with salvation shattered. It has everything to do with the love of God, as we repent of our lapse in Divine Fellowship; then restoration is ours.

The rewards that God has in store for us will only be diminished by those times in which He called us to serve, to minister, to witness, and "we didn't have time," "too busy," dwelling in sinful estrangement, even engaged in non-Spiritual debate in these forums. HE is the Way, the Truth, the Life, not our incredible mind, will, and emotions points of view.

No Christian will be judged for sin ....... we were forgiven at the Cross by our confession of faith. Our judgment does not occur at the Great White Throne; never happen. We'll stand in awe at the Judgement Seat of Christ.


:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

Argue as you will guys. There is no commandment in the NT that commands any Gentile believer to keep the Sabbath. None, nada, zilch. It ain't there.

 

[BobRyan]

Greetings again Bob,

I appreciate your response. My position is not to defend those that in some way endorse the Sabbath Law from the 10 Commandments and who then possibly incorrectly apply this Law to Sunday Keeping. My position is to determine whether the Apostles taught that after Christ’s resurrection the newly converted Gentile believers, for example Gentiles amongst the Galatians, needed to keep the Sabbath Law.

Hi again Trevor -

Thank you for clarifying that point.

Ok - A few questions to start for clarification.

1. So then the "nine Commanmdents" from Ex 20 -- but not the "Ten Commandments" spoken by God?

or is your view that all 10 went away - then nine cam back?

2. Do you view the example and teaching of Christ in the gospel accounts to also be void - or do you accept that these accounts are written after the cross to fulfill the Matt 28 Gospel commission "Teaching them all things that I commanded you"//

3. In my OP I am pointing out that the majority of eve pro-Sunday scholarship affirms the 7 points listed - of which I affirm 6 of the 7. Would you say that you affirm 0 of the 7 and that it is primarily the 6 points where I agree with the majority of even pro-Sunday scholarship - that this is where our differences focus first?

Much could be discussed on this subject by considering Paul’s Letter to the Galatians. If there was an endorsement of Sabbath Keeping, then it could be expected to be in the Letter to the Galatians, because the subject of this Letter is whether the Gentiles needed to keep the Law of Moses.

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ condemns "sola scriptura" those that place man's traditions above the Bible -- saying "Moses said" and then saying "the Word of God" said regarding that same member of the TEN Commandments. Did Mark intend for his readers to object to Christ's teaching on that point since they were reading his Gospel written after the cross?

Paul says in Eph 6:1-2 that the 5th commandment is the "first commandment with a promise" - which is only true in the context of the TEN Commandments - not in the books of Mosesl

What is more in 1Cor 7:19 Paul contrasts circumcision and the Commandments of God - the ceremonial law vs the moral law of God. (A point these pro-sunday scholars also keep in mind for the reader.) and Paul says "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 but not so much the ceremonial law of circumcision - something that Paul deals with again in Galatians 5.

Where then is Sabbath Keeping taught as necessary in the Letter to the Galatians?

You do not find Sabbath Keeping or the prohibition not to take God's name in vain in the letter to the Galatians.

These two commandments are missing "by quote" and "by name" in that letter. So also does Paul omit the 5th commandment in that letter (as does the Acts 15 statement to the Gentiles).

But Paul does say that the "Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7 and that the same Gospel is in place today because in fact there is "only one" Gal 1:6-9.

Yes I accept that both Jew and Gentile will keep some form of Sabbath during the 1000 years when Christ reigns upon the earth from his throne in Jerusalem.

Is 66:23 says that the Sabbath that "All mankind keep" is the one connected to the "New Heavens and New Earth" - so that is Rev 21:1-4 context - "After" the 1000 years.

In Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for mankind - not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" speaking of the making of BOTH - which we find summarized in Ex 20:11 -- which is a short summary of Gen 1:2-2:3 - where we find the "making of Both" and is probably why even the majority of pro-sunday scholars affirm this point of the Sabbath commandment given to mankind in Eden.

What I find lacking in the NT is any direct reference for the need of Gentiles to keep this Law.

Well then may I suggest Rom 3:31, James 2, Romans 8:5-8, Romans 2:13-16?

The next place that I would look is Acts 15 where the requirements of the Law of Moses were again discussed. Again the fact that it is not mentioned in Acts 15 is almost sufficient proof to my mind that the Sabbath was not mandatory.

In Acts 13 we have gentiles showing up in the synagogue "Sabbath after Sabbath" to hear the word of God preached - in fact in that case to hear "Gospel preaching".

In Acts 15 just two chapters later - James affirms that "Moses is preached every Sabbath in the synagogues" to help resolve the issue of whether Gentile Christians are losing out by not conforming to ceremonial laws about circumcision.

And in Gal 2 we find that James is "soo" focused on affirming doctrines found in the Jewish bible - that even Peter is afraid to associate with gentiles at the dinner table when "men from James arrive".

James is farrrr to the right on that Acts 15 discussion.

You are correct that what Jesus said in Matthew 11 did not abolish the 4th Commandment. After he spoke these words the Jewish believers were still under the Law of Moses. But this does not prove that Gentiles who were not under the Law needed to have the Sabbath imposed upon them after accepting Christ.

In Matt 7 Christ condemns judging others - but does not condemn God's Ten Commandments.

In Is 56 Gentiles are specifically singled out for keeping the Sabbath.

In Is 66:23 Gentiles are also included in the post-cross future scope of the Sabbath without any reference at all to the millennium -- only a reference to the Rev 21 post-mill New Heavens and New Earth. So that Rev 21 context is at least "included" in that "all mankind' application for the Sabbath.

Heb 4:9 "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" -- remains from the days of David in the Psalms -- unchanged.

Matthew 11 gives a wider perspective and meaning on the subject of the Sabbath, that is, concerning the true rest rather than the shadow.

As you have stated - no follower of Christ in Matt 11 took that promise of rest to be an end of the 4th commandment. Further - in Matt 11 Christ does not say "someday after the cross I will give you rest then you can stop keeping Sabbath" but rather the rest that Christ promises is every-day and has always been from Genesis to this very day - for it is part of that Gal 1:6-9 "one gospel".


Will address Heb 4 comments next.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God"

When we read in the NT of the need to keep the Commandments, is this referring to the 10 Commandments, or to the whole teaching of Christ and the Apostles regarding the way of life in Christ?

James 2 quotes from the ten commandments
Eph 6:2 quotes from the ten commandments
Matt 5 Jesus specifically says not to claim that he is making void the Law of God.

There is an inference read into the text that "Commandments of God'" does not mean "Commandments of God that are spoken by God" - is that tradition or sola scriptura?

There is no point where James says "and I quote Christ not the scriptures" - Rather James argues the Ex 20 point "He who said... also said" when quoting from the TEN Commandments.

Jesus explained and expanded some of the 10 Commandments in Matthew, such as “Thou shalt not kill”, cutting right to the heart of man’s motives and thoughts and reactions to circumstances. He thus shows that the 10 Commandments are inadequate as a rule of life, by comparison to the way of life in Christ.

In Matt 5 Jesus starts by saying that this is not to lessen even one of the Commandments - he raises the bar such that obedience to Christ in Matt 5 does not void the Ten Commandments - it promotes and expands them.

Also careful thought and heart searching must accompany an understanding of Paul’s exposition surrounding the Commandment “Thou shalt not covet” in Romans 7, especially Paul’s failure to keep this Law, and the Law’s awakening in him of the sin impulse. The Law could not and did not bring righteousness, but condemned the sinner.

Paul is speaking of the Ten commandments in Romans 7 and in Romans 8 5-8 where he says the lost do not submit to it and cannot submit to it - but the saints are keeping it - just as in Rom 3:31.

In Romans 3 Paul is speaking of the TEN commandments when he says they are still binding - still in authority and that the entire world is held to be sinners by that Law -- so also does Gal 3 speak of that same moral Law of God and that in all ages this condemns the lost as sinners. Still doing that today.

This is the same point that the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship today affirms regarding the Ten Commandments included as part of the moral law of God applicable to all mankind in all ages.


in Christ,

Bob